2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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the EDGE
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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fellowhoodlums wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 20:23
Mekki wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 18:28
recent twitter post fro ALO (triple crown) as indicator of mclaren sticking with honda??


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Perhaps that's the sweetner?.Zak talked about return to Le Mans.

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1280 ... ans-return

McLaren sticks with Honda (reluctantly) and Alonso sticks with Honda (reluctantly) in McLaren. Alonso made happy by allowed to compete for triple crown?

Expected Tuesday announcement was for Renault deal, didn't happen so now McLaren putting together a set of "good news" stories to announce?
Not sue this has anything to do with the Honda situation, Mclaren have said for a good few years now a return to LeMans was on the cards with their GT programe

Manoah2u
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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I still might stand corrected in the (near) future but i maintain that the Renault partnership is never going to happen. If Renault didnt have their won works team, then i might concider the potential, and then still you have the not so small issue of RedBull in there.

I refuse to believe that Honda will have such a massively disappointing powerplant for 2018 that they'll ditch them. They still need a personal engine supplier and if Honda is not going to work, then they need to work on someone else which potentially can be Porsche, VAG, Cosworth or BMW. 2021 is a bit far away still, and in it's current state, the Renault engine is a better choice than Honda, BUT in 2021, there will be a semi-reset and you go all the way back to the start, and any manufacturer can be a potential winner and a potential loser.

Honda could be just as big as a risk as Renault, BMW, or any brand out there. Even Mercedes could miss the mark.

dumping Honda in favour for Renault would bring them one guaranteed result though; Honda wont take them back then if they have a monster engine, and RedBull, Williams etc would be standing in line to binge in on the fun. And the additional pain would be that they would have suffered a 3-year loss of Honda money, where any of the competition would have gladly taken that money.

Then we have the issue of not only just losing out on that Honda money, but the neccesity to figure out whether grabbing a Renault engine would be cost-effective. To make up that Honda money loss, they'll have to get a very impressive WCC standing at the season end, and with Renault supplying RedBull and being the works team themselves, AND Mercedes, Ferrari and Force India in the mix and possibly Williams, then i rather doubt whether Renault is going to give them that step up they crave for.

And finally, there's the issue of Alonso. Alonso can say he is loyal as much as he wants, but if Mercedes offers them a ride for 2018, he is 100% guaranteed off. It remains to be seen if he'll even drive in F1 next year, whatever engine Mclaren will run.

In any case, Alonso is Mclaren's most valuable asset at this point, and if they lose him , they fall into an even bigger hole. I can only imagine they'll replace him with Bottas should bottas go for Mercedes, or with Lando Norris instead. That means a Lando Norris + Stoffel Vandoorne combo. I fail to see how that combination with Renault and the gigantic loss of Honda money will be positive for them in slightest.

Hence again, i really really doubt Mclaren will split with Honda.

Nevertheless i don't have a clear answer on why there are such long ongoing talks with Renault, it must be said.
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Andres125sx wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 18:11
Sayeman wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 16:22
I don't know why Fia doesn't freeze engine development? In the V8 era, engine development was frozen but those who were lagging were allowed to catch up. In motogo, new manufacturers are given unlimited testing and extra fuel until they get 3 podiums or a win. Surely, it would have attracted more manufacturers, without the possibility of getting hamstrung like Honda.
F1 and freeze should never be togheter in the same sentence, but I fully agree MotoGP approach is several orders of magnitude more clever and appropiate
I agree with Sayeman. Top manufacturers have had their advantage. Allow the others to catch up. You could do this by freezing the engines of Mercedes and Ferrari (as in the V8 era), I see no problem with that. Keeps down costs too. MotoGP's solution has helped Ducati make it a 3-way fight between manufacturers, so that has proven itself already.

It's my opinion that teams should accumulate available testing hours, based on their position in the championship on a weekly basis. This way, all teams at the bottom of the list can put some mileage on the care to explore new concepts. That way they can catch up to. And because these hours are accumulated on a weekly basis, it's highly variable as well.

Mad
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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McL-H wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 22:12
Andres125sx wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 18:11
Sayeman wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 16:22
I don't know why Fia doesn't freeze engine development? In the V8 era, engine development was frozen but those who were lagging were allowed to catch up. In motogo, new manufacturers are given unlimited testing and extra fuel until they get 3 podiums or a win. Surely, it would have attracted more manufacturers, without the possibility of getting hamstrung like Honda.
F1 and freeze should never be togheter in the same sentence, but I fully agree MotoGP approach is several orders of magnitude more clever and appropiate
I agree with Sayeman. Top manufacturers have had their advantage. Allow the others to catch up. You could do this by freezing the engines of Mercedes and Ferrari (as in the V8 era), I see no problem with that. Keeps down costs too. MotoGP's solution has helped Ducati make it a 3-way fight between manufacturers, so that has proven itself already.

It's my opinion that teams should accumulate available testing hours, based on their position in the championship on a weekly basis. This way, all teams at the bottom of the list can put some mileage on the care to explore new concepts. That way they can catch up to. And because these hours are accumulated on a weekly basis, it's highly variable as well.
Small manufacturers like Aprillia or Suzuki would have no chance against the behemoths if not for those rules. Unfortunately F1 is so ruined by politics and the strategy group that rules like that will never happen in F1.

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diffuser
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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fellowhoodlums wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 20:18
diffuser wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 17:51
fellowhoodlums wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 14:53


Certainly makes you that although I would have thought an announcement of status quo would be forthcoming too. Maybe they are trying to work on Alonso now so a good news announcement can be made at same time as no change on engine.

I think Red Bull are keen on taking over as the works team in 2019 with TR as the mule for 2018 and maybe that's the issue? RB have all the cards.

Alonso already said that he was "ok" with Honda. That he just wanted to visit with them in January and see where they would be at that point.

I don't see why Honda would have an issue with being a works team for RBR.
It was McLaren i was meaning having the issue with RB as the works team.
Talk about having your cake and eat it too ! or as the new Gen says cake on the beach!

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Manoah2u wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 21:38
In any case, Alonso is Mclaren's most valuable asset at this point, and if they lose him , they fall into an even bigger hole.
Do you know what? I used to agree with that and think the same. Not too long ago, in fact. To be precise, it was in 2014. Yes, when Alonso was driving for Ferrari and the team was reaching frustrations of unparallelled proportions, leading to huge management changes. Alonso was frustrated, much as he is now, and at lots of rumours about his leaving.

Me too, felt that he was Ferraris biggest asset. How could they even consider letting him go? The star driver, who pushed that car over all those seasons into impossible podiums, amongst team-mates who couldnt hold a candle against him.

I was convinced, the team would be left in pieces if he'd leave. And he did. And as of 2015, i became a believer. The team changed, became more positive. Doubtful it all had to do with Vettel, sure, but surely all the changes, from management, to drivers, crew all led to a much more positive environment.

Again; i am not suggesting Alonso isnt good for McLaren. I am just not sure i agree that he is the teams biggest asset, despite the incredible performance he brings. Too similar is this situation from what Ferrari went through not long ago....
Last edited by Phil on 08 Sep 2017, 00:19, edited 3 times in total.
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ZakB
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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It's already Thursday now, not going to be a easy split that's for sure.

Just saw the podcast with Joe Saward. He claims that there were deals in place for them to buy Mercedes technology, which was cleared by everybody, but the Honda people wouldn't sign them of, which would have given them the chance the close the gap at much faster rate. It really shows how Honda is working. He also said that McLaren won't be using Honda engines, even if Honda doesn't switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... rgl7Ef6wBM

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HPD
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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TORO ROSSO-HONDA LINK UP COULD OPEN DOORS FOR RED BULL – CHRISTIAN HORNER :!: 8)

Last weekend’s Italian Grand Prix saw numerous meetings take place between the concerned parties, and Horner told Sky Sports F1 recently, that he believes McLaren’s decision will set the ball rolling for further deals.

“It’s not our business but at the end of the day, certain things have to fall into place.

“There’s obviously discussion around what are McLaren doing with Honda, does that open up other avenues for Toro Rosso for instance?

“Until McLaren and Honda sort out their business, nothing else will happen.”

Horner is extremely open to an arrangement being struck between Toro Rosso and Honda, having had a rocky relationship with Renault over the last couple of seasons, the Brit believes it could give Red Bull a second engine supply option, should they need it.

It is no secret that the Milton Keynes based squad have been disappointed with the performance of the Renault engine for some time now. Both Red Bull Motorsport Advisor Helmut Marko and Horner see the lack of power from the French manufacturer’s unit, along with its reliability issues, as the main reason for their inability to fight for the championship with the Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team and Scuderia Ferrari.

Horner would therefore welcome a possible alternative way out of that relationship, which could come in the shape of Honda if they can come good with Toro Rosso.

“For us, that scenario could be quite interesting as it would provide an option.

“At the moment we don’t have any options. In this business you always want to have a few options available to you.”


The Red Bull Boss did stress that any decision made by Toro Rosso would not particularly impact on the senior squad, but did point out that they are leaving it rather late in the day to make up their minds, which could impact on the Faenza based squads progress next year.

“It doesn’t directly affect us. It’s much more of a Toro Rosso issue as they’ll have to design a car and a gearbox around that power unit if they decide to go down that route for next year.

“It’s getting pretty late in the day now, so that’s why we’re very much at a cut-off. I think that applies to McLaren as well if they were to change.

“So it’s a little bit like musical chairs, just waiting for the music to stop.”

http://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2017/ ... an-horner/

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Phil wrote:
08 Sep 2017, 00:17
Manoah2u wrote:
07 Sep 2017, 21:38
In any case, Alonso is Mclaren's most valuable asset at this point, and if they lose him , they fall into an even bigger hole.
Do you know what? I used to agree with that and think the same. Not too long ago, in fact. To be precise, it was in 2014. Yes, when Alonso was driving for Ferrari and the team was reaching frustrations of unparallelled proportions, leading to huge management changes. Alonso was frustrated, much as he is now, and at lots of rumours about his leaving.

Me too, felt that he was Ferraris biggest asset. How could they even consider letting him go? The star driver, who pushed that car over all those seasons into impossible podiums, amongst team-mates who couldnt hold a candle against him.

I was convinced, the team would be left in pieces if he'd leave. And he did. And as of 2015, i became a believer. The team changed, became more positive. Doubtful it all had to do with Vettel, sure, but surely all the changes, from management, to drivers, crew all led to a much more positive environment.

Again; i am not suggesting Alonso isnt good for McLaren. I am just not sure i agree that he is the teams biggest asset, despite the incredible performance he brings. Too similar is this situation from what Ferrari went through not long ago....
Well, before Alonso leaving Ferrari the red team was 2nd, 3th and 4th in the WCC. After Alonso leaving Ferrari the red team has been 3rd and 2nd, so I wouldn´t say Ferrari became noticeably more competitive, a bit, yes, but the difference is not that big, actually it is more of the same, they look like title contenders, until they fall off because of in-season poor development. Exactly the same Alonso suffered and motivated his departure :wink:

And about Alonso, no driver can compensate a poor car, that´s obvious. I agree McLaren should have saved some money at the driver department until the car was competitive enough. But he was Honda demand. This said, imagine McHonda these past seasons without Alonso and the 5th, 6th places he´s managed... the beating would have been even more severe

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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I wasn't referring to being more competitive. There's a stark contrast between how the team was in the years from 2012 to 2014 and how it is now. It's hard to pin point as outsiders of course, but I'd say the management and staff changes were the right ones. I don't want to turn this into a Ferrari specific post, but I did just recently post in another topic that I'm very impressed by how Vettel handled himself at Monza post race. While Arrivabene was clearly very unhappy and critical towards his own team, Vettel said all the right things and carried the right state-of-mind post race. Instead of adding negative energy over losing the lead in the WDC and losing at the Italians most important race of the year - their home turf - he showed himself as rather upbeat and positive... one even got the feeling Vettel almost rallied the team into taking this defeat and turn it into something positive and motivating for the next coming races.

It was even picked up by AMuS:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 31003.html

AMuS wrote:Sebastian Vettel hat ein gutes Gespür dafür, was die Ferrari-Seele braucht. Auf dem Podium sorgte er mit seinen italienischen Worten für Jubelstürme bei den Tifosi. Man konnte fast das Gefühl bekommen, dass der Heppenheimer das Rennen gerade gewonnen hat. Doch das Gegenteil war der Fall: Mercedes feierte auf feindlichem Territorium einen überlegenen Doppelsieg. Und zu allem Überfluss nahm Lewis Hamilton seinem Rivalen aus Heppenheim auch noch die Führung in der WM-Wertung ab.

...

Während Konzernboss Sergio Marchionne und Teamchef Maurizio Arrivabene unisono das Versagen der eigenen Mannschaft kritisierten, versuchte Vettel gute Stimmung zu verbreiten. Hier sieht man, wer der wahre Anführer bei der Scuderia ist. Die Worte von Vettel klangen, wie eine Motivationsrede an das eigene Team: „Ich weiß, dass die Leute morgen mit noch mehr Ehrgeiz ins Büro kommen. Wir hatten eine gute Saison, aber wir sind noch lange nicht am Ziel. Ferrari muss in allen Bereichen die Nummer 1 sein. Mercedes macht uns das Leben schwer. Aber es ist ein langer Weg.“
Those that don't understand German, it roughly translates to that 'while Sergio Marchionne and Arrivabene were very critical towards their own team, Vettel tried to spread a good mood and that he conducted himself like the true leader of Ferrari.'. The article goes on to say that his speeches sounded like a motivation speech directed at his own team. He later said that "he knows that tomorrow everyone will come with more ehrgeiz and ambition to the office. They've had a good season so far, but it's not over yet. They're not number 1 in all areas, Mercedes is making their lifes difficult and it's gonna be a long road [a long fight; e.g. it's not over yet]".

Now before this turns into a Alonso did this and that too, or Vettel vs. Alonso etc, lets just say that both drivers are exceptional at what they do in different ways and Vettel is obviously in a very different state of mind, already having won 4 titles and being quite a bit younger than Alonso. He can afford to be more relaxed. If he wins or doesn't win another championship with Ferrari, he will still go down as one of the most successful drivers of F1. My point is merely that Vettel, since his arrival at Ferrari, has been ticking the right boxes. He's usually quite upbeat, he's intelligent and highly diplomatic, off the track he's extremely likeable (I'm saying this as a non-Vettel supporter).

In the years from 2010 to 2012, one could see the difference between Button and Hamilton. Button was always upbeat, positive, relaxed, Lewis more frustrated and clearly not happy, not happy with the team, not happy with his surroundings etc. A driver that gets on well with his team, goes the extra mile by showing up at the factory, says the right things etc, captivates more energy and motivation from his team to the point, they'd give it their all and very best. A poisonous relationship is never good, which brings me to Alonso, McLaren and Honda.


What McLaren-Honda needs, more than anything, is unity. For them to act as one-team, one entity - the "works-team" they are. One hand washes the other. Alonso is the "face" - the driver who turns what the team has brought together into results. He is also the teams voice. People, the team, and that does also include Honda, need to believe in him and his trust into the team. Calling the engine a GP2 engine etc is like a kick in the teeth for the engineers who have worked hard to get that thing working in the first place. The negativity also includes team McLaren too. Honda need to believe that their work, commitment and progress are appreciated. I can assure you, they don't want a driver or team who has been publicly bashing them for the past 2.5 seasons in a humiliating way to win with their package (if they ever get it working). These are just many signs of what is going wrong there. It's not a harmonic relationship and I'm doubtful it ever was. But if they want to succeed, they need to believe in each other and stand there as one team. And that also includes the driver.

We all get that Alonso is frustrated. But maybe, just maybe, his frustrations are carrying over to the team a little too much. The approach "all or nothing" has been wrong from the beginning. Perhaps with more moderate targets, there would have been less desperation leading to more errors, wrong design choices, going for extremes when a more analytical and progressive approach might have been more controllable. Mercedes didn't start winning in a day either. They had difficult years from 2010 and onwards, but yet, the team made small iterative improvements season after season until finally being quite competitive in 2013. McLaren and Alonso need to do some rethinking in their expectations and maybe concede that their expectations and demands have perhaps lead to unlikely, unrealistic targets and caused more friction and errors by Honda IMO.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Stormy
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Well if the engines are significantly simpler for 2021, any reason why McLaren couldn't make their own engines? Simple or not, they'll struggle like Honda at the beginning, that's for sure...

ZakB
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Stormy wrote:
08 Sep 2017, 10:28
Well if the engines are significantly simpler for 2021, any reason why McLaren couldn't make their own engines? Simple or not, they'll struggle like Honda at the beginning, that's for sure...
McLaren does what Honda don't: signing people with expertise.

BrunoH
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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i think they will get some of the best staff in the world to sort this out wayyy early and test the hell out of them in some lmp chassis, or formula chassis

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Sayeman
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Still no confirmation yet, hard to believe all this Monza drama being nothing but a farce. Meanwhile, Horner's still rubbing his hands in anticipation.
Never Give up.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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We should know 48 hrs after Monza, been almost 5 days. Now Twitter is saying another 24 hours.
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