2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

[Vasconia]

I still think it was not Vettel who was responsible for the crash. It was a combination of multiple situations, in which he was a contributor. IF none would have crashed (assuming Kimi would have pulled off the move on Verstappen), Hamilton would have started 4th as he already overtook Ricciardo by the start line. That would have kept him behind the top 3. The conditions were very difficult and Verstappen and Lewis are good in such conditions and at some point, could have overtaken Kimi. That would mean, 1. Vettel, 2. Max and 3. Lewis. The only opportunity that Mercedes would have had, was to use the same strategy that they used in the race, which was to stay out when the leaders would pit for another set of Inters, when Kvyat went off. OR if none pitted at that time, then pit very early for slicks when the track dried, ahead of Vettel and Max.

I think, everything was possible and a good entertaining race was there to watch. It would have been a battle of strategies between Ferrari, RB and Mercs. Rain did it's job, but Kimi's brilliant start (who normally used to lose places at the start) took away all of that.

I don't understand people blaming Vettel either, he moved to the middle of the track to cover Verstappen, do people just expect him to leave the door wide open and let Verstappen through?

If we are going with foresight, everyone could've avoided waht happened, Kimi could've gone wider of Verstappen, Verstappen could've lifted and Vettel could've stuck to the outside line since Kimi was jumping Max anyway.

According to what I have seen in the Spanish newspaper Marca, the most prominent Italian newspapers are blaming directly Vettel. Well, those newspapers love to point out always someone.

[Phil]

I don't understand people blaming Vettel either, he moved to the middle of the track to cover Verstappen, do people just expect him to leave the door wide open and let Verstappen through?

I'll bite.

I fully expect a driver starting from pole to defend his position when he can. On this particular track, the very first corner is to the left. By covering the inside of the track, you are taking the shortest route to the apex, potentially forcing your opponents attempting an overtake to go around you; meaning putting themselves in a less advantageous position. Why? Because any one attempting to pass will be on the outside and will run the risk of being pushed wide on corner exit.

Covering the inside, the apex, therefore makes perfect sense.

Assuming Vettel (or any driver starting from pole) makes the perfect getaway, he can swipe left, right, to be frank, he can pretty much do anything he wants, because he won't be impeding anyone, other than himself.

But what if he doesn't make the perfect getaway? What if he has a moderate start? A bad start? A horrendous start? On any one of these occasions, the chop to the left into the direct path of those starting all around you becomes more dangerous. A bad start means there's a high probability that someone behind you had a better one, potentially coming in quick. By the time you complete your manoeuvre to the left, you might already find a car partially alongside you, if not already right next to you.

Vettel had a less than ideal start. He knew Max was there and pulling along side, yet he continued to move to the left. There's a point at which you as a driver just have to concede that your start wasn't good enough to cover the 'other side of the track'. At that point, any defensive blocking move is futile, dangerous and will result in either a collision or crowding another car off the track. It's not allowed during any part of the race on any straight and is quite clearly in the sporting regulations.

Yes, one move is allowed, but only as long as you don't crowd another car off the track. This is precisely what happened. Vettel moved across with little regard for what was happening around him. He knew his start was compromised so his "chop" ended up being more aggressive. Two things happened at the same time: Max was close enough to be impeded and Kimi, who had an even better start, was already alongside him and at a much higher speed than both of them

Just because you are starting on pole, doesn't give any driver the right to chop other drivers off the road, especially not when the start is compromised. Vettel defended hard, in a desperate attempt to cover his bad getaway and ultimately payed the price.

As in most circumstances in motorsport - it always takes two to tangle. A driver might anticipate what is happening around him, what is at stake, who he is tangling with to determine risk vs reward. In this particular instance, considering the bad start, it was a bad move happening too late on Vettels part. He knew Max was starting beside him and even before he was chopping to the left, should have realised that the position was likely lost already.

It's a bit like poker. Go all in with bad cards and you'll risk losing.

[zeph]

Nah, Vettel didn't do anything overtly wrong. Neither did Verstappen or Raikkonen. It's just an unfortunate chain of events, textbook racing incident.

[banjo789]

A bad start means there's a high probability that someone behind you had a better one

I'm being pedantic but that's not strictly true as the starts are independent events in terms of probability. You could argue that due to the weather there was an overall lower probability of getting a good start. I get what you mean though. Someone would likely hook it up (Kimi/Lewis/Fred) and they'd be well along side the lead car before the braking zone.

[maxxer]

Just watched that slow motion of the start again , but what a great start for alonso he did the cut the right way going to the right side of the track without hitting anyone even not his teammate and perfectly lined up for the corner , also the 2 force india's went to the right line, Vettels move to go left would have opened the gap for hamilton or ricciardo anyway so he only put himself into more trouble by going of the driving line to fend them off.

[Dazed1]

I did not get the post-race interviews, I am curious if Hamilton knew Vettel got hit in that early crash? He was careful to stay to the left of the track after turn one which placed him safely away from Vettel's subsequent spin and crash.

He was not, until he saw Vettel spin after turn 2. He backed off in turn 1 itself, when he saw Vettel coming fast from the inside, as going any faster would have made him miss the turn and go through escape area. In his post race interview, he said he was happy that he was behind Vettel and could race him, but immediately, he saw Vettel spinning.

Thanks!

[Andres125sx]

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[drunkf1fan]

A bad start means there's a high probability that someone behind you had a better one

I'm being pedantic but that's not strictly true as the starts are independent events in terms of probability. You could argue that due to the weather there was an overall lower probability of getting a good start. I get what you mean though. Someone would likely hook it up (Kimi/Lewis/Fred) and they'd be well along side the lead car before the braking zone.

In this situation actually due to the racing line being rubbered in and rubber being more slippery in the wet, there was a very high possibility of everyone on the normally 'bad' side of the grid to get better starts and as such it was expected and not any surprise that so many on the left side of the grid did have such good starts.

Compared to a dry start there was far more reason to believe more cars could catch you due to being on the basically slower starting racing line side of the grid.

[justmoi]

Oh come on guys I don't want to get into the argument but rain washes away the rubber. Especially the type of rain we had in Singapore, after qualifying, during race day for hours before the race, then it stopped then started again before the race. We had thunderstorms. It's why it's called a 'green track' after downpour. The rubber is washed off.

Lewis (and others btw) had a great start from same racing line. Lewis was on the same line two cars behind Vettel and had a super launch.

[drunkf1fan]

Hamilton started in 2nd gear for a reason and he didn't have as good a start as Max and no where near Kimi's start. Ricciardo also had a poor start. Lewis was better prepared and iirc moved off and wider than normal pretty quickly and avoided the potential for spin when switching gear into 2nd.

As for the concept that the rain washes away rubber. It washes away some rubber so that it's not as fast as the day before after it was more rubbered in, but that doesn't mean all the rubber is gone at all. There is a reason that every driver and every pundit talks about alternative lines in the wet and staying off the racing line is often faster... it's not because all rubber is washed away.

[justmoi]

His launch off the racing line was perfect. He moved off to avoid Ric. He started in second Max started in first, both good starts, it was just down to their personal preference for the conditions. Nothing t do with side of track. Lewis start was as good as anyone. WAtching the race again i didn't even think Max had a great start, him Vettel and Ric

[Schuttelberg]

I think Vettel and Verstappen summed it up perfectly- We have the benefit of hindsight and slo-mo's. The 3 in this situation had mere seconds to react. It's a simple racing incident.

As Verstappen said, if it had been any two combination of drivers, a crash wouldn't have occurred.

As for the 'chop' and how Vettel should be more calculated, it all comes from Hamilton fans and the British media. Hamilton made Rosberg look like a joke with all sorts of chops and driving him off the road. It's racing. It's what champions do. Suddenly, these people are passing moral science lessons? To be very honest, Vettel had to win in Singapore. There is a lot of reports saying that he could have played the long game, but in my estimation if he has to beat Hamilton and Mercedes then he has to take some risks. Even if it means dropping all the eggs in his basket.

The media tirade though and all this talk of Vettel's weaknesses is absolutely laughable. There seems to be an absolute desperate attempt by some people to make this season look like Lewis is winning the WDC in the second best car against a world champion with the fastest car and against a very fast team mate. The truth is quite far from it.

Just wanted to add something- I know my avatar and sig is going to make this post come across as a 'fanboy' post but I think the result was due in Vettel's corner. He didn't deserve 1 point in Azerbaijan and he got 12. So while he lost a lot more here, I feel he had this coming. But this figment of imagination being driven by the media that this crash was a driving error by Vettel, some even saying he deserved a penalty is just BS!

[GPR-A duplicate2]

As for the 'chop' and how Vettel should be more calculated, it all comes from Hamilton fans and the British media. Hamilton made Rosberg look like a joke with all sorts of chops and driving him off the road. It's racing. It's what champions do. Suddenly, these people are passing moral science lessons?

Overgeneralizing. Isn't it? A lot of Hamilton fans here, including me, doesn't think it was JUST Vettel who was responsible. He had a bad start and did what a driver would do from pole. For his bad luck, it wasn't just one car next to him. A chop is not a problem, but a bad chop is. Like the one in 2016 Spanish GP.

Drivers of current age are expected to move on and not make fuss of what happened in last race. The only time you hear them speak their mind, is immediately after the incident. Once the dust settles, it's the PR consciousness that takes over. Atleast, I wasn't expecting any kind of childish behaviour from any of those three in the Malaysian drivers' press conference. What they said in the immediate aftermath, including the official Ferrari twitter handle, is what each party thought as the reality. Two weeks later, the world knows how PR works.

[Phil]

As for the 'chop' and how Vettel should be more calculated, it all comes from Hamilton fans and the British media. Hamilton made Rosberg look like a joke with all sorts of chops and driving him off the road. It's racing. It's what champions do. Suddenly, these people are passing moral science lessons?

I think it's very different, if the leading guy pushes someone wide on corner exit (while being slightly ahead) through T1 than if someone attempts to defend his position on a straight *before the corner* by chopping aggressively to the other side of the track to be an obstacle against an opponent starting better.

Again: Yes, a driver defending his position can chop anywhere he want, as long as he is still ahead and he can do so to put himself on the part of the track which is advantageous to be for the first corner - in this specific case, the inside of the corner - but it just doesn't work well when someone is already moving up besides him. You can't move or chop into a space that is already (or about to be) occupied by another car!

Vettel had a bad start (translated: worse than the two cars around him) which limited how and when to chop in a safe way. The worse the start is (relative to the others around you), the worse it will turn out when you do change your position abruptly. In Vettels case here at Singapore, it is all linked to the start he had. Had the start been better, then the "chop" would have been fine given he would have been ahead of both Max (and Kimi) and assuming he would have covered the inside line nicely, both his attackers would have been forced to go around the outside (and be at a distinct disadvantage into T1 when Vettel could have pushed them wide on corner exit).

[TAG]

I think Vettel and Verstappen summed it up perfectly- We have the benefit of hindsight and slo-mo's. The 3 in this situation had mere seconds to react. It's a simple racing incident.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any reasonable fan here that said otherwise, the only ones that seemed to disagree were Ferrari and their inexplicable tweets. Hence the discussion.