2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[stevesingo]

I am wondering why the supposed superior McLaren chassis were down from RedBull 0.1-02 sec per lap in the second sector, when Alonso was with fresh soft tires but Ricciardo was with 32 laps and more old soft tires? Verstappen were about 0.7 sec quicker there with new soft tires. At the very same time, Alonso was 0.4 sec per lap quicker than Masa (with new softs, too) in the same sector. How this holds with the theory that McLaren are missing only the power of mighty Renault engine?

I don't believe Alonso ran in clean air through S2, he was always behind Massa and therefore fixed to Massa's pace in a sector where overtaking is not possible.

[j.yank]

I am wondering why the supposed superior McLaren chassis were down from RedBull 0.1-02 sec per lap in the second sector, when Alonso was with fresh soft tires but Ricciardo was with 32 laps and more old soft tires? Verstappen were about 0.7 sec quicker there with new soft tires. At the very same time, Alonso was 0.4 sec per lap quicker than Masa (with new softs, too) in the same sector. How this holds with the theory that McLaren are missing only the power of mighty Renault engine?

I don't believe Alonso ran in clean air through S2, he was always behind Massa and therefore fixed to Massa's pace in a sector where overtaking is not possible.

Actually in the second stint with softs Alonso was most of the time 2-2.5 sec behind Masa, and never was capable to close more than 0.4 in sector 2, which then he lost in sector 1 and 3. At the same time, there were not any problem for Ricciardo catch Massa in the same sector 2.

[j.yank]

I am wondering why the supposed superior McLaren chassis were down from RedBull 0.1-02 sec per lap in the second sector, when Alonso was with fresh soft tires but Ricciardo was with 32 laps and more old soft tires? Verstappen were about 0.7 sec quicker there with new soft tires. At the very same time, Alonso was 0.4 sec per lap quicker than Masa (with new softs, too) in the same sector. How this holds with the theory that McLaren are missing only the power of mighty Renault engine?

It's rather easy.
In S2 when the power isn't a factor Alonso was able to catch Massa. But then obviously not able to pass and end up in Massa's wake hence why is was 0.4 up. However in S1&3 when the power is smportant he was being slightly left by the Mercedes Donkey even with DRS.

The McLaren in S2 was counteracting the power loss in S1&3 lap after lap. However the Red Bull with a Renault was able to catch in S2 and then actually have the power to pull off the overtake in S3. Once clear they left the Williams behind. McLaren with a Renault would have had the power to pull off the same trick.

This could be true only the difference between Red Bull and McLaren is sector 2 was only because of the power difference, but in this case McLaren should loose even more to Red Bull on the straights, but this was not the case - there they were only 0.05-0.1 sec down - the same like with Mercedes powered cars.

[Restomaniac]

I am wondering why the supposed superior McLaren chassis were down from RedBull 0.1-02 sec per lap in the second sector, when Alonso was with fresh soft tires but Ricciardo was with 32 laps and more old soft tires? Verstappen were about 0.7 sec quicker there with new soft tires. At the very same time, Alonso was 0.4 sec per lap quicker than Masa (with new softs, too) in the same sector. How this holds with the theory that McLaren are missing only the power of mighty Renault engine?

It's rather easy.
In S2 when the power isn't a factor Alonso was able to catch Massa. But then obviously not able to pass and end up in Massa's wake hence why is was 0.4 up. However in S1&3 when the power is smportant he was being slightly left by the Mercedes Donkey even with DRS.

The McLaren in S2 was counteracting the power loss in S1&3 lap after lap. However the Red Bull with a Renault was able to catch in S2 and then actually have the power to pull off the overtake in S3. Once clear they left the Williams behind. McLaren with a Renault would have had the power to pull off the same trick.

This could be true only the difference between Red Bull and McLaren is sector 2 was only because of the power difference, but in this case McLaren should loose even more to Red Bull on the straights, but this was not the case - there they were only 0.05-0.1 sec down - the same like with Mercedes powered cars.

Alonso had DRS for most of the time behind Massa. That was why he was staying close enough on the straights to catch lap after lap in S2. Yet in S2 when he could get close there is nowhere to pass.

You are comparing a Red Bull with no DRS with a McLaren with DRS. What happened when a Red Bull had DRS himself? He breezed past Alonso and Massa.

[j.yank]

It's rather easy.
In S2 when the power isn't a factor Alonso was able to catch Massa. But then obviously not able to pass and end up in Massa's wake hence why is was 0.4 up. However in S1&3 when the power is smportant he was being slightly left by the Mercedes Donkey even with DRS.

The McLaren in S2 was counteracting the power loss in S1&3 lap after lap. However the Red Bull with a Renault was able to catch in S2 and then actually have the power to pull off the overtake in S3. Once clear they left the Williams behind. McLaren with a Renault would have had the power to pull off the same trick.

This could be true only the difference between Red Bull and McLaren is sector 2 was only because of the power difference, but in this case McLaren should loose even more to Red Bull on the straights, but this was not the case - there they were only 0.05-0.1 sec down - the same like with Mercedes powered cars.

Alonso had DRS for most of the time behind Massa. That was why he was staying close enough on the straights to catch lap after lap in S2. Yet in S2 when he could get close there is nowhere to pass.

You are comparing a Red Bull with no DRS with a McLaren with DRS. What happened when a Red Bull had DRS himself? He breezed past Alonso and Massa.

No, I compare McLaren with Red Bull after the pit stops of Alonso and Verstappen, when both of them were with new softs, and Alonso never closed the gap with Massa bellow 2 sec from lap 30 to lap 67. So, this cannot be excuse.

[Joseki]

Actually in the second stint with softs Alonso was most of the time 2-2.5 sec behind Masa, and never was capable to close more than 0.4 in sector 2, which then he lost in sector 1 and 3. At the same time, there were not any problem for Ricciardo catch Massa in the same sector 2.

They were saving either fuel or tyres, Alonso asked permission to catch Massa and he reached him in about 3-4 laps when he had the go, they even broadcasted the radio messages.

[stevesingo]

I am wondering why the supposed superior McLaren chassis were down from RedBull 0.1-02 sec per lap in the second sector, when Alonso was with fresh soft tires but Ricciardo was with 32 laps and more old soft tires? Verstappen were about 0.7 sec quicker there with new soft tires. At the very same time, Alonso was 0.4 sec per lap quicker than Masa (with new softs, too) in the same sector. How this holds with the theory that McLaren are missing only the power of mighty Renault engine?

I don't believe Alonso ran in clean air through S2, he was always behind Massa and therefore fixed to Massa's pace in a sector where overtaking is not possible.

Actually in the second stint with softs Alonso was most of the time 2-2.5 sec behind Masa, and never was capable to close more than 0.4 in sector 2, which then he lost in sector 1 and 3. At the same time, there were not any problem for Ricciardo catch Massa in the same sector 2.

Prior to RIC pitting on L44, RIC did 38.279 in S2 on 43lap old Softs. On the same lap ALO did 37.914 on 15 lap old softs, which could be expected, given the newer tyre.

Post pitstop, RIC did a 37.522 on his outlap using new Super Softs against ALO 38.055 and MAS 38.357. Again, the tyre difference is at play there. Neither comparison is like for like due to tyres, so I guess RIC was faster at that point due to new tyres of a faster compound.

ALO was given the hurry up from the pits on L45, ALO closed the gap from 2.46s down to 0.972 by L54. All the time losing in S1 and S3.

ALO compared to MAS in S2 between L46 and L54

L46 S2 +0.171 Lap +0.689 (ALO Passed by RIC)
L47 S2 -0.429 Lap -0.192
L48 S2 -0.962 Lap -0.911(MAS passed by RIC)
L49 S2 -0.435 Lap +0.068
L50 S2 -0.476 Lap -0.116
L51 S2 -0.448 Lap -0.063
L52 S2 -0.454 Lap -0.027
L53 S2 -0.454 Lap -0.056
L54 S2 -0.471 Lap -0.134
L55 S2 -0.653 Lap -0.346

For the most part, What was gained in S2 was lost in S1&3. Perhaps in clean air ALO could have been 0.2-0.3 faster in S2, bt he would not have had the benefit of the low and probably lost more or on the straights in S1 and S3.

FWIW ALO was faster than RIC between L53-57.

What is probably more indicative of the relative pace through S2 is the Qualifying pace.

RIC 33.211 vs ALO 35.197 vs VER 34.853.

One has to wonder if McLAren trimmed DF to have a respectable top speed.

[Joseki]

i hope mclaren incompetent engineers are working hard to package a much bigger renault engine , now they dont have the luxury of a smaller engine honda gave them. cant wait to laugh at these fools that were hiding behind honda

Whatever help you sleep at night, man.

[techman]

One has to wonder if McLAren trimmed DF to have a respectable top speed.

you must be joking. mclaren are running the most drag out of all f1 teams. redbull removed the T wing but mclaren being mclaren ran them. not only that mclaren has the highest rake angle. no wonder the top speed gets affected. cant wait to see the top speed of this mclaren in 2018 compared to redbull. i pretty much guarantee. their top speed will be lower compared to redbulls. since redbull is the most efficient chassis out there

[stevesingo]

No, I compare McLaren with Red Bull after the pit stops of Alonso and Verstappen, when both of them were with new softs, and Alonso never closed the gap with Massa bellow 2 sec from lap 30 to lap 67. So, this cannot be excuse.

How can you compare VER in clean air with ALO 2-2.5sec behind MAS. Completely different circumstances.

The rest, read above...

[ripper]

Well i think it's useless to compare 2017 chassis with a still not existant 2018 one that won't even have monkey seat, twing and sharkfin

[RonDennis]

The progress that McLaren showed in the last couple of races is hugely impressive in my opinion. Why do you even want to see McLaren don't do well? It's good for Formula 1. I would like to see all teams fighting with each other instead of the 4 cars that are currently dominating the sport in boring fashion.

Well i think it's useless to compare 2017 chassis with a still not existant 2018 one that won't even have monkey seat, twing and sharkfin

It's still an evolution and not having a sharkfin en T-Wing is McLaren's decision.

[stevesingo]

Running the math.

Assuming the Renault has 950hp, air density at 760m, aero load of 2100kN, Coefficient of rolling resistance 0.036.

Qualifying max speeds, RIC 324.1kph vs ALO 316.2kph

% difference in drag between RB and McL

0 57.0
1 50.8
2 44.7
3 38.5
4 32.3
5 26.2
6 20.0
7 13.8
8 7.7
9 1.5
10 -4.7

So, if the Honda has the same power as the Renault in qualifying the McLaren would have over 9% more drag. It may have more drag, but 9% seems a lot. Even at 5%, it is still 26.2 hp down.

If we look at the race when in clean air (>2.5sec from the car in front) with an assumed Renault power of 900hp

L38

ALO 2.561 behind MAS - Speed 298kph
RIC 4.971 behind VER - Speed 307kph

0 61.8
1 56.0
2 50.2
3 44.4
4 38.7
5 32.9
6 27.1
7 21.3
8 15.5
9 9.8
10 4.0


So the gap in the race is greater.

[godlameroso]

Whats 14mph between friends

Now stick a Renault with only 1/2 that speed loss in that McLaren. McLaren will be with Red Bull in 2018. It's going to add to the top end mix nicely.

That's assuming the current performance from the Renault, who knows what the relative difference will be next year.

[Restomaniac]

Whats 14mph between friends

Now stick a Renault with only 1/2 that speed loss in that McLaren. McLaren will be with Red Bull in 2018. It's going to add to the top end mix nicely.

That's assuming the current performance from the Renault, who knows what the relative difference will be next year.

True. But the point is that right now it's obvious that the Honda is down on power.

Comparisons can be made by looking at Massa in the Williams in Brazil.
Red Bull all over Massa with Ricciardo in S2 and with DRS blasts past.
McLaren all over Massa with Alonso in S2 and with DRS is stuck behind.
It doesn't need a stretch to see what Alonso could have done with the power that Ricciardo had. Even with the Renault Turbo turned down.

Would it be the same? Who knows but it would certainly add Alonso extracting 100% from the McLaren into the mix.