Renault V6 Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
PlatinumZealot
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:23 pm

The compression ratios as far as people on this website estimate.. are in the range of maybe 16:1 and higher.... Maybe guru or Wazari can give more insight. The engines are still spark ignition obviously, but they achieve a sort of quasi-homogeneous combustion using jet-fired ignition.

The MGUH doesn't affect the combustion itself, but it is the most expensive, cutting edge, most computationally demanding, fragile, assembly on the car that adds to the whole "green" initiative but nearly zero to road relevance and race spectacle.
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Postmoe
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by Postmoe » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:18 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:23 pm
The MGUH doesn't affect the combustion itself, but it is the most expensive, cutting edge, most computationally demanding, fragile, assembly on the car that adds to the whole "green" initiative but nearly zero to road relevance and race spectacle.
I'm very interested by this statement. Why can't MGUH have road car applications?

hemichromis
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by hemichromis » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:36 pm

Postmoe wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:18 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:23 pm
The MGUH doesn't affect the combustion itself, but it is the most expensive, cutting edge, most computationally demanding, fragile, assembly on the car that adds to the whole "green" initiative but nearly zero to road relevance and race spectacle.
I'm very interested by this statement. Why can't MGUH have road car applications?
I'm also wondering this. Couldn't the cost come down in time or is it another problem?

noname
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by noname » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:44 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:23 pm
(...) The MGUH doesn't affect the combustion itself, but it is the most expensive, cutting edge, most computationally demanding, fragile, assembly on the car that adds to the whole "green" initiative but nearly zero to road relevance and race spectacle.
It is an amazing piece of engineering, indeed, but it is neither extremely complex nor ultra-fragile. I can think of few other subsystems being higher in those categories, like turbocharger.

Neither it is non-relevant. There are few engines utilizing MGUH on the way, SOPs already defined.

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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:19 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:23 pm
The MGUH doesn't affect the combustion itself, but it is the most expensive, cutting edge, most computationally demanding, fragile, assembly on the car that adds to the whole "green" initiative but nearly zero to road relevance and race spectacle.
Silliest thing I've read here in a long time. :P

The MGU-H is extremely exciting when it comes to the prospect of use in Road Cars and the aftermarket in race cars.
I've actually thought about starting a company in this area because it is so exciting.
You only have to look at Bosch who already offer electronic supplementary superchargers (fitted in Audi Turbo Diesels) to see that this technology will emerge before too long in the real world.

Plug in electric cars are not the future (not anytime soon anyway) - the future of more efficient road cars is the use of ERS systems (both kinetic and heat) to improve engine efficiency while still having a usable range.

I'm working with an OEM right now on this same subject and the predicted production numbers for Hybrid KERS based cars vs Plug In doesn't even compare.

FW17
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by FW17 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:06 pm

MrPotatoHead wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:19 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:23 pm
The MGUH doesn't affect the combustion itself, but it is the most expensive, cutting edge, most computationally demanding, fragile, assembly on the car that adds to the whole "green" initiative but nearly zero to road relevance and race spectacle.
Silliest thing I've read here in a long time. :P

The MGU-H is extremely exciting when it comes to the prospect of use in Road Cars and the aftermarket in race cars.
I've actually thought about starting a company in this area because it is so exciting.
You only have to look at Bosch who already offer electronic supplementary superchargers (fitted in Audi Turbo Diesels) to see that this technology will emerge before too long in the real world.

Plug in electric cars are not the future (not anytime soon anyway) - the future of more efficient road cars is the use of ERS systems (both kinetic and heat) to improve engine efficiency while still having a usable range.

I'm working with an OEM right now on this same subject and the predicted production numbers for Hybrid KERS based cars vs Plug In doesn't even compare.
And electric motors are cheap

It makes sense to have a electric turbine generator and electric super charger separately, will simplify the electronic controls to a certain extent.

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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:22 pm

FW17 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:06 pm
MrPotatoHead wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:19 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:23 pm
The MGUH doesn't affect the combustion itself, but it is the most expensive, cutting edge, most computationally demanding, fragile, assembly on the car that adds to the whole "green" initiative but nearly zero to road relevance and race spectacle.
Silliest thing I've read here in a long time. :P

The MGU-H is extremely exciting when it comes to the prospect of use in Road Cars and the aftermarket in race cars.
I've actually thought about starting a company in this area because it is so exciting.
You only have to look at Bosch who already offer electronic supplementary superchargers (fitted in Audi Turbo Diesels) to see that this technology will emerge before too long in the real world.

Plug in electric cars are not the future (not anytime soon anyway) - the future of more efficient road cars is the use of ERS systems (both kinetic and heat) to improve engine efficiency while still having a usable range.

I'm working with an OEM right now on this same subject and the predicted production numbers for Hybrid KERS based cars vs Plug In doesn't even compare.
And electric motors are cheap

It makes sense to have a electric turbine generator and electric super charger separately, will simplify the electronic controls to a certain extent.
Exactly. Not only that but it makes packaging easier.
One of the problems though is the higher voltage circuits needed to reduce the current demand.
I think the OEM Bosch units I mentioned are running at 48V.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:16 pm

MrPotatoHead wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:19 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:23 pm
The MGUH doesn't affect the combustion itself, but it is the most expensive, cutting edge, most computationally demanding, fragile, assembly on the car that adds to the whole "green" initiative but nearly zero to road relevance and race spectacle.
Silliest thing I've read here in a long time. :P

The MGU-H is extremely exciting when it comes to the prospect of use in Road Cars and the aftermarket in race cars.
I've actually thought about starting a company in this area because it is so exciting.
You only have to look at Bosch who already offer electronic supplementary superchargers (fitted in Audi Turbo Diesels) to see that this technology will emerge before too long in the real world.

Plug in electric cars are not the future (not anytime soon anyway) - the future of more efficient road cars is the use of ERS systems (both kinetic and heat) to improve engine efficiency while still having a usable range.

I'm working with an OEM right now on this same subject and the predicted production numbers for Hybrid KERS based cars vs Plug In doesn't even compare.
Have a look at some of the engineering challenges of building the MGUH. The electronics and materials are nuts! Road cars also don't operate in the constantly high loaded mode like a race car so there would be little waste heat to recover.

Listen out if you hear anything on MGUH implementation. For economical reasons... I would be surprized if it released on anything than limited run hyper-road cars with F1 engine.
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

dren
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by dren » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:51 pm

MrPotatoHead wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:22 pm
I think the OEM Bosch units I mentioned are running at 48V.
I'm' surprised cars haven't made the leap into higher voltages already.
Honda!

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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:16 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:23 pm
The compression ratios as far as people on this website estimate.. are in the range of maybe 16:1 and higher.... Maybe guru or Wazari can give more insight. The engines are still spark ignition obviously, but they achieve a sort of quasi-homogeneous combustion using jet-fired ignition.

The MGUH doesn't affect the combustion itself, but it is the most expensive, cutting edge, most computationally demanding, fragile, assembly on the car that adds to the whole "green" initiative but nearly zero to road relevance and race spectacle.
The MGUH doesn't affect combustion directly, but it does indirectly by controlling the turbo, which means you can control airflow into the engine, as well as pressure ratios,(which affects cylinder pressures) intake pressure and exhaust back pressure, all things that are integral to the combustion process.
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by Mudflap » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:57 am

Sieper wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:11 pm
but then again, plonk an engine "that dominated for a decade" in a current car (for arguments sake let's disregard it wouldn't meet current regulations) and see the car struggle. The current level of integrations of different specialties is just on such a different level. I do agree with your point that the creative power of a small team is lost, but how can you still meet the requirements of a designing a current gen engine with a small team, it is just undoable. If you could find a way, have such a great team then yes, you could still gain a great advantage by harnassing their skills.

In my own field of expertise (ERP Software) we are also way past this point, you can only know/understand a small fraction of the workings.
You can't really compare an engine that was designed so long ago to modern F1 engines.
As a matter of fact F1 is an exception to what I have said - the teams are comparatively small and work to relatively 'loose' standards. I know for a fact that Mercedes had about a dozen engineers that worked on the inline 4 turbo and had it running on the dyno in 4 months or so.
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Mansell89
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by Mansell89 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:47 am

Guys just looking for some clarification re: the Renault PU for next year.

I have read two contrasting interviews from Cyril that have left me unsure.

Originally I read an article that said Renault would have a large upgrade for 2018 and that they would not be able to bring it forward to 2017. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.crash. ... 2018%3famp

However, there then seemed to be the idea that it was 2017 where they made a lot of change (hence reliability issues this year) and that basically we would see regular updates and performance-related gains. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13123 ... e-for-2017

Can anyone provide any clarity on whether there is a big change in architecture or design for 2018?

Does anyone hold hope that they can get close to the Merc/Ferrari level?

baybars
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by baybars » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:49 am

Mansell89 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:47 am
Guys just looking for some clarification re: the Renault PU for next year.

I have read two contrasting interviews from Cyril that have left me unsure.

Originally I read an article that said Renault would have a large upgrade for 2018 and that they would not be able to bring it forward to 2017. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.crash. ... 2018%3famp

However, there then seemed to be the idea that it was 2017 where they made a lot of change (hence reliability issues this year) and that basically we would see regular updates and performance-related gains. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13123 ... e-for-2017

Can anyone provide any clarity on whether there is a big change in architecture or design for 2018?

Does anyone hold hope that they can get close to the Merc/Ferrari level?
I suggest that you follow Taffin comment about PU.
Taffin said that 2017 and 2018 PU same architecture.
Renault has already tested some 2018 parts on 2017 PU
https://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2017 ... rand-prix/

GhostF1
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by GhostF1 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:27 am

Mansell89 wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:47 am
Guys just looking for some clarification re: the Renault PU for next year.

I have read two contrasting interviews from Cyril that have left me unsure.

Originally I read an article that said Renault would have a large upgrade for 2018 and that they would not be able to bring it forward to 2017. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.crash. ... 2018%3famp

However, there then seemed to be the idea that it was 2017 where they made a lot of change (hence reliability issues this year) and that basically we would see regular updates and performance-related gains. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13123 ... e-for-2017

Can anyone provide any clarity on whether there is a big change in architecture or design for 2018?

Does anyone hold hope that they can get close to the Merc/Ferrari level?
As far as I am aware, and from what I've read from Abiteboul throughout the season is Renault had a change in engine concept this year and will continue with this in 2018, at the start he said they would have 3 or 4 noticeable hardware upgrades throughout the season, however as the season progressed, he retracted that and said there would be no or minimal hardware changes this year and would only be providing engine management or minor upgrades. NOW though he is claiming Renault will make a noticeable step in 2018.
And while I have absolutely no doubt that the Renault will improve, the thing about Abiteboul is, he seems to make A LOT of promises, to later ignore what he's said previously or provide a completely different set of expectations. We've mentioned this plenty of times.

I'm expecting 2018 Winter testing to be this:
The 2018 Renault PU to be good from the outset, not top 2, but competitive, and Abiteboul will claim there is plenty to come as they concentrate on reliability over power for the short term and pace will be unlocked as the season progresses.
It's his go to line as he has said the same thing for 3 years.

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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:30 pm

Hopefully Renault will not change too much for next year so that they can get to the bottom of their reliability and production problems.

I predict a podium finish for a Renault Powered McLaren at the first race of 2018 (Alonso of course)