2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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diffuser
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Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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  • It is well documented that Merc runs .90 degree of rake. Less than 50% of McLaren's 2.05 degrees.
  • the cars aren't going very fast yet, if they were the Mclaren front wing would be higher off the ground
  • not sure how the DRS affects the pitch of the car

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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marmer wrote:
21 Nov 2017, 02:37
diffuser wrote:1st off ...It was a RBR Idea. I presume PP and Newey were involved.

Lets just take a fictitious number 10. Lets say your fastest hi speed corner is 200KPH. At 205 KPH the car starts to generate 10 as you accelerate you'll generate > 10 but the car will start to squat and reduce the amount of DF the rear of the car generates. So again fictitious numbers lets say at 250KPH the rear of the car would normally generating 15 but because of the squat it's still generating 11 (or something like that). Since the Front wing is in front of the front wheels, lowering the back raises the front wing which will also reduce DF/Drag. The angle of attack of the splitter also is lowered, again decreasing DF/drag.


Here is a great shot I took from the Mclaren MCL32 honda forum that shows what rake does to the front wing. Compare the Merc to the Mclaren.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNVlxJmW0AIjPXZ.jpg
Any rake the Merc could have will be affected in that shot by the drs so it's not quite a fare comparison
No, DRS would keep the Mercedes with rake (no DF at the back compressing rear suspensions), but if the picture is showing a higher front wing in the Mercedes, even with DRS open, that´s an evidence of a flatter Mercedes vs a Mclaren with lots of rake

hemichromis
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNVlxJmW0AIjPXZ.jpg

It would be great if someone could do a frontal area comparison of those two cars and figure out how top speed would be affected.
I'm not sure how i would go about that.

techman
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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mclaren running heavy drag. anyone want to bet that redbull top speed in a renault will be better than mclaren renault in 2018.? mclaren cant hide anymore in 2018. i hope mclaren keep that high rake for 2018.

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FW17
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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techman wrote:
21 Nov 2017, 10:28
mclaren running heavy drag. anyone want to bet that redbull top speed in a renault will be better than mclaren renault in 2018.? mclaren cant hide anymore in 2018. i hope mclaren keep that high rake for 2018.
Both use the same concept to reduce downforce on the starights a combination of aero and suspension trickery. Why should one be worse than the other, when both have adequate resources?

The guys at Honda will have no access to aero data of the McLaren car in terms of drag and downforce, can't get a handle on the engine but think they are aero geniuses.

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diffuser
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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techman wrote:
21 Nov 2017, 10:28
mclaren running heavy drag. anyone want to bet that redbull top speed in a renault will be better than mclaren renault in 2018.? mclaren cant hide anymore in 2018. i hope mclaren keep that high rake for 2018.
This recording has been brought to you by techman!

stevesingo
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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FW17 wrote:
21 Nov 2017, 12:06
techman wrote:
21 Nov 2017, 10:28
mclaren running heavy drag. anyone want to bet that redbull top speed in a renault will be better than mclaren renault in 2018.? mclaren cant hide anymore in 2018. i hope mclaren keep that high rake for 2018.
Both use the same concept to reduce downforce on the starights a combination of aero and suspension trickery. Why should one be worse than the other, when both have adequate resources?

The guys at Honda will have no access to aero data of the McLaren car in terms of drag and downforce, can't get a handle on the engine but think they are aero geniuses.
Thick wings tm

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etusch
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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FW17 wrote:
21 Nov 2017, 12:06
techman wrote:
21 Nov 2017, 10:28
mclaren running heavy drag. anyone want to bet that redbull top speed in a renault will be better than mclaren renault in 2018.? mclaren cant hide anymore in 2018. i hope mclaren keep that high rake for 2018.
Both use the same concept to reduce downforce on the starights a combination of aero and suspension trickery. Why should one be worse than the other, when both have adequate resources?

The guys at Honda will have no access to aero data of the McLaren car in terms of drag and downforce, can't get a handle on the engine but think they are aero geniuses.
This is very strange. McLaren and Ferrari are very old teams had good resource but it is obvious that this era's best chassis redbull and brawn/merc and now Ferrari too.(according to your logic old teams must be ahead everytime and having same level source teams must be same level) But you must understand that resource is not enough.
Other thing where do you know that Honda can reach which data of McLaren? How will they make engine settings without any data ? You're just talking to defense McLaren. We all know that they'll be a bit better than this year (2017) at straights in 2018 season and nothing more

techman
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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The guys at Honda will have no access to aero data of the McLaren car in terms of drag and downforce, can't get a handle on the engine but think they are aero geniuses.
The funny thing is mclaren boast about GPS data, but the reality is , you can take a car sauber, add plenty of drag and downforce and sauber will also be able to boast about how good the car is in corners. GPS data is NOT always an accurate assesment of how efficient is the chassis. Honda does not have access to aero data in a partnership?. give me a break. wait for 2018 i can guaranteee redbull will show mclaren how to build a proper efficient chassis. just wait a few months

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bauc
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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I wrote someting but forget it, it will just lead to 50 more pages on why Honda is right and Mclaren is wrong and vice versa.
Last edited by bauc on 21 Nov 2017, 13:59, edited 2 times in total.
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techman
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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This is like your 70th post blaming Mclaren over Honda, WOW ... just WOW you are truly committed
mate iam just pointing out the truth. both mclaren and honda are to blame for the mclaren honda problems. not just honda problem alone

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bauc
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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techman wrote:
21 Nov 2017, 13:58
This is like your 70th post blaming Mclaren over Honda, WOW ... just WOW you are truly committed
mate iam just pointing out the truth. both mclaren and honda are to blame for the mclaren honda problems. not just honda problem alone
.

Unless you are part of Mclaren or Honda team you cant know the truth, so continuing this blame game is boring. It think is pretty evident that the partnership failed.
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hemichromis
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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We don't actually know that this is the truth.

Mclaren's car could be fantastic or it could be average, we cannot know until next year.

It would be very hard to find anyone who thinks the Honda engine is currently on par with even Renault.

So it is not unreasonable that Honda gets the lion's share of the blame.

I was a big fan of the project and I hope both do well next year.

I don't think a wildly biased post will sway the general opinion.

stevesingo
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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techman wrote:
21 Nov 2017, 13:36
The guys at Honda will have no access to aero data of the McLaren car in terms of drag and downforce, can't get a handle on the engine but think they are aero geniuses.
The funny thing is mclaren boast about GPS data, but the reality is , you can take a car sauber, add plenty of drag and downforce and sauber will also be able to boast about how good the car is in corners. GPS data is NOT always an accurate assesment of how efficient is the chassis. Honda does not have access to aero data in a partnership?. give me a break. wait for 2018 i can guaranteee redbull will show mclaren how to build a proper efficient chassis. just wait a few months
Quite true, but their overall lap time would likely be worse. Are you suggesting that McLaren are similarly compromising their overall pace and therefore chances of gaining WDC points, position and money (which if the rumours of them losing $100m of Honda money next year, they need it)? If so, and you seem to suggest they are, what is the motive?

To Make Honda look bad? If they were looking for an exit, I could believe it. But, they have an exit so therefore it makes no logic to continue to compromise your soon to be ex-partner at the same time compromising yourself. It would be cutting your nose off to spite your face.

To make their chassis seem better to attract sponsors for next year? That doesn't work any better than trimming for higher top speed/running less compromised and finishing higher. "Look, we are challenging the top three at all circuits and we will be winning next year with the extra power of the Renault PU" or "We are on the back end of the top ten but will be challenging the top three next year with the extrap power of the Renault PU".

Will McLaren beat RBR next year? Maybe, maybe not. Both teams will have different chassis for 2018. But they are something like 1% slower in race trim as at Brasil. If they are less than 1% slower in 2018 with better reliability, they have made the correct decision.

Come 2019, who knows. RBR might not have Renault power after 2018.

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FW17
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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The great STR Honda 2018
Image

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