2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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f1316
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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sAx wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:03 am
ringo wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:13 am
cplchanb wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:38 pm

i respectfully disagree with the statement omitting schumacher. theres a reason why he had the pole record until now. sure he had many poles in the dynasty era but many were also set in the darker years like 97-99 when other teams had better cars or at least as competitive. teammates wise apart from the tenure with prost and berger, most of the teammates were pretty subpar to him to begin with.

however when gauging greatness you cant just label someone legendary with bias towards their qualifying. its should be the entire package. schumi in undeniably legendary (good and bad ways) because not only was he the rainmaster and fast, he built a team around him from essentially losers to a dynasty. not to mention, qualifying during his strongest years were based on race fuel levels. alot of the poles that other drivers got during those years sacrificed their race performance. If you look at 2007/08 when hamilton had arguably the strongest cars of the field he didnt clean the poles because race fuel dictated alot of qualifying. likewise for senna. Im sure that if it was race fuel, alot of the magical poles wouldnt have happened.

just my 2 cents...
Hamilton = sportsmanship, qualifying pace, race craft, getting the most out of the car, rain master, mind games, etc.
A degree of racing intelligence should be recognised too. Witness run down to Eau Rouge at Spa under extreme pressure and having the capacity to reduce effect of slipstream by easing off the throttle on the rise to Raidillon. Never heard any of the greats claim that as a possibility!
We do also need to remember that the period of qualifying with race fuel schewed who did ‘the fastest lap’ quite a lot.

I don’t need to detail them all but go back and watch 2003-2006 and see how many times other teams would go lighter on fuel to get ahead of the faster Ferrari on the grid, only for Schumacher to do several more laps on his first stint and so jump them at the stops.

Just one case in point - and addressing another one of these little myths that have developed - is Japan 2006; Massa on pole ahead of Michael and one of the reasons some people have the notion that Felipe was on terms by the end of the year. He really wasn’t. Just watch the race and see how many more laps Michael does - it’s scary for a .112 gap in quali.

Fuel-corrected Schumacher’s tally is much higher, and so the idea he wasn’t as much of a quali-guy as Hamilton/Senna also a little off - although I do to some extent agree and you can see that drivers like Michael and Fernando are more geared towards race day, which is where they shine the most.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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I think that Hamilton pole count after X years in a dominant car would be what Schumachers' poles would be like on a per race basis. I am assuming the weak teammates of Schumacher balances out the sheer speed of Lewis.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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cplchanb wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:38 pm
he built a team around him from essentially losers to a dynasty.
With respect, that's incorrect. He didn't build a team around him. Brawn and Todt built the team around him. He had a team that was set up to ensure that he was treated as the number 1 driver. The team engineered the car to suit him. He had access to unlimited testing and to bespoke tyres from Bridgestone.

No doubt Schumi was a fabulous driver, but this myth of him alone creating a winning Ferrari is just too much to see without comment.
If you look at 2007/08 when hamilton had arguably the strongest cars of the field he didnt clean the poles because race fuel dictated alot of qualifying.
2007? His rookie year? The year he out-qualified the reigning double world champion 6:2 in poles? What did he have to do to prove his ability?!!!
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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GPR-A wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:44 am

I am of the strong opinion that, Michael would have had far far too many pole positions, if the qualifying wasn't being done on race load (which brought in a lot of variety and Ferrari always placed premium for race and let go of many poles). The fact that, most modern drivers have more poles than wins, shows how different approach is now, than it was in Michael's time. If it was like that of today, qualifying on fumes, I am sure Michael would have had a minimum of 100 poles.
I'm of the strong opinion that Michael wouldn't have had as many poles or wins as he did if he had strong team mates like Senna and Hamilton had/have had. Senna shared a garage with a world champion and Hamilton has shared a garage with three different champions (counting Rosberg) and out qualified and taken more wins than all three. Indeed, he has 12 more poles than all three put together and only 8 wins fewer than all three of them put together!

Yes, Hamilton has had good cars but he's had good team mates who were expected and allowed to compete too. Schumacher had great cars but he also only had team mates who were just required to make up the numbers.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Shrieker
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:28 am
who were just required to make up the numbers.
and block schumacher's opponents in the races.
and block them in practice.
and annoy the fvcking life out of them.

Yes I'm talking about you mr. irvine.

I remember reading somewhere many years ago that Ferrari wanted Rubens alongside Michael when he was first joining in 1996. Michael wanted Eddie. Only when it was unfathomable that the team would help someone other than Michael, was Rubens allowed to join. And he was shafted on the occasions where he did actually beat Michael on the track.
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ringo
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:28 am
Senna shared a garage with a world champion and Hamilton has shared a garage with three different champions (counting Rosberg) and out qualified and taken more wins than all three. Indeed, he has 12 more poles than all three put together and only 8 wins fewer than all three of them put together!

Yes, Hamilton has had good cars but he's had good team mates who were expected and allowed to compete too. Schumacher had great cars but he also only had team mates who were just required to make up the numbers.
Red card and off the field with you.. the perspective in your post is too real!! =D>

Well i think Hamilton's bargaining power should be strengthening going into 2018. He should be able to make all kinds of demands next year, and also for any upcoming contract at any team; even ferrari, as Marchione is starting to see the glisten fade from the wunderkid Vettel. Ferrari is losing faith in vettel to deliver and looks like they will want Hamilton for 2019. They are desperate for a championship.
For Sure!!

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Sierra117
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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ringo wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:47 am
Well i think Hamilton's bargaining power should be strengthening going into 2018. He should be able to make all kinds of demands next year, and also for any upcoming contract at any team; even ferrari, as Marchione is starting to see the glisten fade from the wunderkid Vettel. Ferrari is losing faith in vettel to deliver and looks like they will want Hamilton for 2019. They are desperate for a championship.
Lewis mentioned in one of those Yes-No interviews that he would retire with Merc (amongst other occasions). But we all know how things change. Personally I'd hate to see him leave Merc.
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:13 am
cplchanb wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:38 pm
he built a team around him from essentially losers to a dynasty.
With respect, that's incorrect. He didn't build a team around him. Brawn and Todt built the team around him. He had a team that was set up to ensure that he was treated as the number 1 driver. The team engineered the car to suit him. He had access to unlimited testing and to bespoke tyres from Bridgestone.

No doubt Schumi was a fabulous driver, but this myth of him alone creating a winning Ferrari is just too much to see without comment.
If you look at 2007/08 when hamilton had arguably the strongest cars of the field he didnt clean the poles because race fuel dictated alot of qualifying.
2007? His rookie year? The year he out-qualified the reigning double world champion 6:2 in poles? What did he have to do to prove his ability?!!!
Also 2007 when without a gearbox glitch in the last race at Interlagos he would have won a WDC in his rookie year. As you say what more did he need to do.

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:28 am
GPR-A wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:44 am

I am of the strong opinion that, Michael would have had far far too many pole positions, if the qualifying wasn't being done on race load (which brought in a lot of variety and Ferrari always placed premium for race and let go of many poles). The fact that, most modern drivers have more poles than wins, shows how different approach is now, than it was in Michael's time. If it was like that of today, qualifying on fumes, I am sure Michael would have had a minimum of 100 poles.
I'm of the strong opinion that Michael wouldn't have had as many poles or wins as he did if he had strong team mates like Senna and Hamilton had/have had. Senna shared a garage with a world champion and Hamilton has shared a garage with three different champions (counting Rosberg) and out qualified and taken more wins than all three. Indeed, he has 12 more poles than all three put together and only 8 wins fewer than all three of them put together!

Yes, Hamilton has had good cars but he's had good team mates who were expected and allowed to compete too. Schumacher had great cars but he also only had team mates who were just required to make up the numbers.
Let's see some facts and statistics.

Image

Senna got poles in 88, 89 and 90 in some of the most dominant cars, that were leading the next best cars by more than a second and at times more than 2 seconds and in some places, MORE THAN 3 SECONDS.

Prost was behind Senna in almost all qualifyings by more than half a second in 88 and over a second in 89! Wow!. NOT A CREDIBLE OPPONENT AT ALL IN QUALIFYING! Good race driver, but a complete slouch in qualifying. In fact, in so many qualifyings, Prost did worse than the next best car! Same goes to Gerhard Berger.
As soon as McLaren lost the dominance, Senna was nowhere in qualifying. SO IT WAS MORE ABOUT THE CAR AND LACK OF A CREDIBLE QUALIFYING OPPONENT (More than half a second behind in 88 and over a second in 89?)! Nobody can go faster than a car can go. Great drivers can only get near to 100% of the car and poor drivers can be nowhere.

Image
** "0" Means Pole.

Next time when someone claims Senna beat Prost, use these statistics to show how credible Prost was in qualifying!

As for Michael, he never had a dominant qualifying car. The numbers in 2000 and 2001 seems like big, but. In 2000, the advantage to the next best car, WAS ALMOST NIL! Average pole position difference to the McLarens was about a tenth and a half. In 2001, the average difference to the next best car, sometimes a Williams and sometimes McLaren, was in the range of 2-3 tenths! But then again, it suited some circuits and not the others. EVEN IF PROST WAS MICHAEL'S TEAM MATE IN THOSE YEARS, he wouldn't have been figuring in top 3 qualifiers, considering the qualifying difference he had to Senna (Senna WITH DOMINANT CARS)!

In 2004, F2004 was quite dominant, but again, about half a second to next best car. But, it was a period of qualifying on race fuel load! Still, Barrichello got half the number of Michael's poles. Quite credible compared to the likes of Prost and Berger.

To belie this beautiful MYTH about the second driver was ONLY THERE FOR NUMBERS, Barrichello in 2002, 2003 and 2004 got almost HALF THE POLES as that of Michael! Why did FERRARI not stop him from that, if that was in contract AND IF HE WAS THERE ONLY FOR NUMBERS! So definitely, Barrichello has been a FAR CREDIBLE opponent as a team mate, than Prost, Berger and the other team mates of Senna.

Image
** "0" Means Pole.

I hope people pay closer attention to details and not just gets lost in aura!

Hamilton definitely stands out as the best qualifier, better than Michael and Senna both. Purely because, he has had really good qualifiers as his team mates for considerable amount of time in his career. So, his achievements stands out.
Last edited by GPR-A duplicate2 on Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Shrieker
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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GPR-A,

Come on man, are you serious. Was Prost ever asked to give his place to Senna, or block his opponents from challenging him ? Rubens and Eddie did win races, but either when Michael wasn't present or when he was having an off weekend. Oddly, Lewis is given sh!t for his off weekends, when in fact Michael at his time was having plenty of them too.
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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Shrieker wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:34 pm
GPR-A,

Come on man, are you serious. Was Prost ever asked to give his place to Senna, or block his opponents from challenging him ? Rubens and Eddie did win races, but either when Michael wasn't present or when he was having an off weekend. Oddly, Lewis is given sh!t for his off weekends, when in fact Michael at his time was having plenty of them too.
Can we stay specific to qualifying and not muddle the discussion? Race antics are a different topic altogether.

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ringo
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Good post, and supported by facts.
Prost though.. hard to say he wasn't good in qualifying, but for sure it was easier for Senna to beat him and get poles than Shumacher. What i found impressive was how consistently shujmacher was over the years getting poles.
But one thing for sure is that Shumacher's teammates were under control from the team, so the truth is somewhere in the middle when comparing Senna and Michael. But i found the stats revealing. You make a good point.
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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Lewis breaks so many barriers doesn't he?
. 100!!. CEN . TUR.. ION. 100!!..