Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Singabule
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017, 07:47

Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
03 Dec 2017, 17:08
Singabule wrote:
30 Nov 2017, 03:38
And yet its still IC engine, all the money and effort to improve IC will be wasted if researcher found large capacity battery. I think the only Way to move forward is keep or increase hybrid dependant so manufacturer can invest their money in correct technology. Thats why even if honda and renault cant win in current formula, they said it is a shame to move to less sophisticated electrical side.
It think you just lost your right to be a part of this thread. Unforgiveable!
Hi PZ, sorry for that, i Just cant imagine how could honda afford the failures and yet still want to compete. Yes indeed combustion is the very integral part of current PU, but if their mguh can recover 160hp of it, there should be no problem at all. As Hasegawa mentioned before, every increase in combustion efficiency result in drop of exhaust energy. For the current formula, that issue is not acceptable at all. How could if your money investment turn to bashing and yet honda still there? I think honda believe none of researcher could improve the battery dramatically, so so there is no point in investing in that area. On the other hand, MGUH could offer big gain in efficiency, especially for the constant output rate engine, such in honda generator.

Singabule
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Mudflap wrote:
04 Dec 2017, 11:17
I was quite impressed with the number of laps Honda have done in post season testing. Compared to the pre season disaster it certainly looked good and I'm generally pessimistic about their engines.

Were there any statements in the press about how it went, what engines they ran etc? Are they limited to race pool engines or can they bring new ones ?
They can bring new one, but there is no point in changing from the race engine, since they want confirm reliability afterall. Few changes in mapping and thats it, i believe MCL engineer also dont want to replace it at all, so much effort to perfom engine changes, as their relation is done.

toraabe
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Joined: 09 Oct 2014, 10:42

Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
03 Dec 2017, 17:14
McHonda wrote:
02 Dec 2017, 23:18
He definitely doesn't strike me as a liar either, I've always found him a very honest man. Its just a typical vague statement you get from bosses when talking about things like this.

A 'few percent' can be whatever you want it to be. It can be Brundle's figures*, it could be closer. You could describe Brundle's figures in a few ways that make it sound quite good. 'Closer to Renault than Renault are to Mercedes' or 'A few percent' or 'Quite close to Renault'.

But on track it would still be a big performance gap between them.

(*For those that missed it.Gap to Mercedes(ICE)..
Renault +6%
Honda +11%)
Nooooo!
Remember when the calculations were done earlier in the thread the Brundle fuel usage figures tranlated to ICE efficiency of Honda @44% at WORST... Which is indeed a few percent from 50%.
44% ..... same as Mercedes had in2014

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Thunder
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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This is not the Thread to discuss the Aero Philosophy of the MCL32. :wink:
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

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HPD
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Joined: 30 Jun 2016, 16:06

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Honda Invests in Revolutionary Driving Simulator for Future R&D Activities

Honda will become the world’s first car manufacturer to adopt new state-of-the-art driving simulator technology, based on a revolutionary architecture called DiM250 (Driver-in-Motion).

Image

Most driving simulators make use of motion technology derived from flight simulators, and typically use six actuators to deliver six ‘degrees of freedom.’ However, to accurately reproduce vehicle ride, handling and acceleration characteristics within a single simulator, VI-grade’s DiM250 system uses nine actuators to create additional ranges of motion. It is unique in the industry.

Yasunori Oku, Executive Vice President, Honda R&D Europe, said: “We expect to use DiM250 primarily for vehicle dynamics and ride applications, as well as using it as a crucial tool to develop and test our ADAS, HMI, powertrain and autonomous driving technologies earlier in the design process. The DiM250 technology will provide an ideal common development platform for our research and development activities, where all teams involved can work together in one single collaborative environment.”

The new simulator will be installed at Honda R&D Europe’s technical centre in Offenbach, Germany, in the second half of 2018.
More:http://world.honda.com/worldnews/2017/4 ... uture.html

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Craigy
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Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 10:20

Re: Honda Power Unit

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HPD wrote:
04 Dec 2017, 16:02
Honda Invests in Revolutionary Driving Simulator for Future R&D Activities

Honda will become the world’s first car manufacturer to adopt new state-of-the-art driving simulator technology, based on a revolutionary architecture called DiM250 (Driver-in-Motion).

http://world.honda.com/content/dam/site ... 204/01.jpg

Most driving simulators make use of motion technology derived from flight simulators, and typically use six actuators to deliver six ‘degrees of freedom.’ However, to accurately reproduce vehicle ride, handling and acceleration characteristics within a single simulator, VI-grade’s DiM250 system uses nine actuators to create additional ranges of motion. It is unique in the industry.

Yasunori Oku, Executive Vice President, Honda R&D Europe, said: “We expect to use DiM250 primarily for vehicle dynamics and ride applications, as well as using it as a crucial tool to develop and test our ADAS, HMI, powertrain and autonomous driving technologies earlier in the design process. The DiM250 technology will provide an ideal common development platform for our research and development activities, where all teams involved can work together in one single collaborative environment.”

The new simulator will be installed at Honda R&D Europe’s technical centre in Offenbach, Germany, in the second half of 2018.
More:http://world.honda.com/worldnews/2017/4 ... uture.html
This has nothing to do with the Honda power unit.

Even if it did, look up the DiM-C simulator (which is the model above the one Honda are buying), and have a guess at which F1 team has been using one since 2014.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Back on topic.

Renault is midway in the gap bewtween Honda to mercedes

And Ferrari is mid-way between renault and Mercedes.

A geometrical distribution of sorts.

It also revealvs that there is some limiting returns.. And it might be reasonable to expect ferrari to come within 1% fuel usage. renault 2% and Honda 4% next year. In other words next years Honda engine might be smack between 2017 Reanult and Ferrari PU's. Not bad. Should be good enough to fight for podiums.
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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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There's nothing to suggest Mercedes won't take another clear step forward. This is a 5 year project, Honda is just entering year 4. The power unit evolves by the hands of humans, thus it is imbued with certain lifelike qualities, much like humans go through a big change after adolescence after a long slow period of development, so too will this power unit go though a significant step forward. No hope involved, just understanding how things evolve, Honda will surprise people next year, and if TR is allowed to develop the chassis they will be strong.
Saishū kōnā

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
04 Dec 2017, 21:03
There's nothing to suggest Mercedes won't take another clear step forward. This is a 5 year project, Honda is just entering year 4. The power unit evolves by the hands of humans, thus it is imbued with certain lifelike qualities, much like humans go through a big change after adolescence after a long slow period of development, so too will this power unit go though a significant step forward. No hope involved, just understanding how things evolve, Honda will surprise people next year, and if TR is allowed to develop the chassis they will be strong.
So Honda is through the awkward pimple phase?

Based on what Hasegawa says, the Honda PU will retain the same layout; it'll be an evolution. That can mean the PU as a whole won't be changed much, just small improvements to every little component, or better yet, they will retain the Mercedes split compressor layout but come with pretty much all new heads, compressor/turbine, MGUH, and block just like what Wazari was hinting at. It appeared that they got on top of their MGUH shaft bearings towards the end of the year.

They ran air-air coolers with Mclaren. Suppose they'll stick with it or move to water-air?
Honda!

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Wazari
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Joined: 17 Jun 2015, 15:49

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
04 Dec 2017, 21:03
There's nothing to suggest Mercedes won't take another clear step forward. This is a 5 year project, Honda is just entering year 4. The power unit evolves by the hands of humans, thus it is imbued with certain lifelike qualities, much like humans go through a big change after adolescence after a long slow period of development, so too will this power unit go though a significant step forward. No hope involved, just understanding how things evolve, Honda will surprise people next year, and if TR is allowed to develop the chassis they will be strong.
Nice post. All manufacturers will take a step forward, that's obvious. However there is a law of diminishing returns. Mercedes' gains should be incrementally smaller. They already have a big advantage in fuel usage efficiency over the others.

2018 PU as Hasegawa-san stated, should be quite an evolution of this year's PU with the overall layout staying the same. It is intended to run liquid cooled intercoolers. This was a point of contention before among others. The big change should be the MGU-H and combustion related components. I assume moving forward the MGU-H will be a 100% spec Honda unit. It will be interesting to see how TR and Honda work together over the winter to maximize the performance of each other's products.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

j.yank
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Joined: 08 Jul 2015, 13:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Wazari wrote:
04 Dec 2017, 22:02
godlameroso wrote:
04 Dec 2017, 21:03
There's nothing to suggest Mercedes won't take another clear step forward. This is a 5 year project, Honda is just entering year 4. The power unit evolves by the hands of humans, thus it is imbued with certain lifelike qualities, much like humans go through a big change after adolescence after a long slow period of development, so too will this power unit go though a significant step forward. No hope involved, just understanding how things evolve, Honda will surprise people next year, and if TR is allowed to develop the chassis they will be strong.
Nice post. All manufacturers will take a step forward, that's obvious. However there is a law of diminishing returns. Mercedes' gains should be incrementally smaller. They already have a big advantage in fuel usage efficiency over the others.

2018 PU as Hasegawa-san stated, should be quite an evolution of this year's PU with the overall layout staying the same. It is intended to run liquid cooled intercoolers. This was a point of contention before among others. The big change should be the MGU-H and combustion related components. I assume moving forward the MGU-H will be a 100% spec Honda unit. It will be interesting to see how TR and Honda work together over the winter to maximize the performance of each other's products.
Would this be your spec 4.0 PU or evolution of "too many cooks" current concept?

Snorked
68
Joined: 16 Mar 2015, 21:00

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Honda have released photos of the engine

Image
Image
Image

https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/12/03/ ... -ra617h-6/

roon
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Joined: 17 Dec 2016, 19:04

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Thanks, Snorked. Many cast components evident: heads, block, compressor housing. Merc seems to use milled versions of all these. Emulation of the Merc layout was only a piece of the puzzle it seems. The devil remains in the details.

The connection between the post-filter intake and the electronics box atop the intake manifold--is this an intake sensor (pressure, flow, temp), or a cooling channel? If the latter, would air flow into it from remaining ram-air pressure post-filter or out from it due to low pressure pre-compressor?

Why hide the clutch?

VGT inside the runner collector seems likely given its shape. Permitting linear movement within its length. Nested between the three runners at the center of the aluminum collector plate (annotated image below) is a telltale linear hydraulic actuator body, anodized green and similar in size and design to their wastegate and BOV actuators. Total travel of the runners within would depend on telescope ratio. If 2:1, then travel equivalent to one bore-to-bore distance. 90mm or thereabouts. But it could be more (3:1, 4:1?) depending on how many concentric 'sleeves' the telescope has. Depends also on actuator and runner design. Elastic or baffled materials could be stretched to more extreme ratios, up to ~180mm within the volume shown, although the actuator looks sized for smaller travel.


Image

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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The little silver pipe after the air filter is a blow-off valve return. They relocated it for 2017.
The green actuators, could be motors with a power-screw drive. The VLI setup is very similar to Mercedes too.
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roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
05 Dec 2017, 02:02
The green actuators, could be motors with a power-screw drive.
I doubt they are electric, but your post makes me think that if the actuator is rotary rather than linear, it could be rotating a threaded control rod rather than simply push-pulling the intake stacks into positions. As such, travel within the manifold would not relate to the length of the actuator body visible in the photo.

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