You have assumed a 2000 rpm delta but not stated the initial speed. If the initial speed is 120,000 the energy delta is 26 kJ (assuming 50 mm radius of gyration). If the initial speed is zero, the energy delta is 219 J which I assume is the scenario you used.Craigy wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 13:48A few stated assumptions: 50s duration, flywheel of 4Kg (the minimum in the rules), 100mm diameter (seems sensible enough for the turbo sizing alone), 40 pulses per second, 2000rpm rev change (of the MGU-H) during a pulse. Energy per pulse depends on the mass distribution on the MGU-H (mass in the centre has less inertia than the edge), but lets say that it's something like 180J because the majority of the mass is on the outer ring of the MGU-H, due to some clever designer putting weight out there.
In this case, we have 50s per lap * 40 events per second * 180J per event = only an additional unmetered 360KJ per lap. That's only 3s of full deployment and hardly worth the trouble. You could go for a larger RPM change, at cost of the ICE seeing more and more variable levels of manifold pressure.
Guru, take a look at the Honda graph in the last image. The data is there and it is obvious! Look at the rapid osciallting part of the mguh plot in yellow. That is the alternating generator/motor action.gruntguru wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 05:40You have assumed a 2000 rpm delta but not stated the initial speed. If the initial speed is 120,000 the energy delta is 26 kJ (assuming 50 mm radius of gyration). If the initial speed is zero, the energy delta is 219 J which I assume is the scenario you used.Craigy wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 13:48A few stated assumptions: 50s duration, flywheel of 4Kg (the minimum in the rules), 100mm diameter (seems sensible enough for the turbo sizing alone), 40 pulses per second, 2000rpm rev change (of the MGU-H) during a pulse. Energy per pulse depends on the mass distribution on the MGU-H (mass in the centre has less inertia than the edge), but lets say that it's something like 180J because the majority of the mass is on the outer ring of the MGU-H, due to some clever designer putting weight out there.
In this case, we have 50s per lap * 40 events per second * 180J per event = only an additional unmetered 360KJ per lap. That's only 3s of full deployment and hardly worth the trouble. You could go for a larger RPM change, at cost of the ICE seeing more and more variable levels of manifold pressure.
Although this looks more optimistic for your theory, I still don't buy it. The rules don't allow energy (beyond 4 MJ/lap) to be transferred from the ES to the 'K and this is nothing but a loophole which the FIA would close in a heartbeat once discovered. The unusual energy flow would be obvious in data reviewed by officials.
Is it obvious?PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 06:43Guru, take a look at the Honda graph in the last image. The data is there and it is obvious! Look at the rapid osciallting part of the mguh plot in yellow. That is the alternating generator/motor action.gruntguru wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 05:40You have assumed a 2000 rpm delta but not stated the initial speed. If the initial speed is 120,000 the energy delta is 26 kJ (assuming 50 mm radius of gyration). If the initial speed is zero, the energy delta is 219 J which I assume is the scenario you used.Craigy wrote: ↑02 Jan 2018, 13:48A few stated assumptions: 50s duration, flywheel of 4Kg (the minimum in the rules), 100mm diameter (seems sensible enough for the turbo sizing alone), 40 pulses per second, 2000rpm rev change (of the MGU-H) during a pulse. Energy per pulse depends on the mass distribution on the MGU-H (mass in the centre has less inertia than the edge), but lets say that it's something like 180J because the majority of the mass is on the outer ring of the MGU-H, due to some clever designer putting weight out there.
In this case, we have 50s per lap * 40 events per second * 180J per event = only an additional unmetered 360KJ per lap. That's only 3s of full deployment and hardly worth the trouble. You could go for a larger RPM change, at cost of the ICE seeing more and more variable levels of manifold pressure.
Although this looks more optimistic for your theory, I still don't buy it. The rules don't allow energy (beyond 4 MJ/lap) to be transferred from the ES to the 'K and this is nothing but a loophole which the FIA would close in a heartbeat once discovered. The unusual energy flow would be obvious in data reviewed by officials.
https://i.imgur.com/k0cys2U.jpg
The flow diagram states it. Also, look at the orange in the MGUH plot vs the blue. You can see the periods where it looks like the H is oscillating back and forth between motoring and generating. There are two white leader lines showing the difference between the H in orange and blue. These periods line up with where the K is generating more.wuzak wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 07:11Is it obvious?PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 06:43Guru, take a look at the Honda graph in the last image. The data is there and it is obvious! Look at the rapid osciallting part of the mguh plot in yellow. That is the alternating generator/motor action.gruntguru wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 05:40You have assumed a 2000 rpm delta but not stated the initial speed. If the initial speed is 120,000 the energy delta is 26 kJ (assuming 50 mm radius of gyration). If the initial speed is zero, the energy delta is 219 J which I assume is the scenario you used.
Although this looks more optimistic for your theory, I still don't buy it. The rules don't allow energy (beyond 4 MJ/lap) to be transferred from the ES to the 'K and this is nothing but a loophole which the FIA would close in a heartbeat once discovered. The unusual energy flow would be obvious in data reviewed by officials.
https://i.imgur.com/k0cys2U.jpg
Can you cut the relevant bit out and show the obvious bit?
The ES doesn't need to transfer >4MJ from the ES to the K directly in order for this to be viable. The direct route from ES to K is max 4MJ per regulation and I am not suggesting it needs to be breached.gruntguru wrote: ↑03 Jan 2018, 05:40... I still don't buy it. The rules don't allow energy (beyond 4 MJ/lap) to be transferred from the ES to the 'K and this is nothing but a loophole which the FIA would close in a heartbeat once discovered. The unusual energy flow would be obvious in data reviewed by officials.