Exhaust flames on overrun

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
williamssam
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Exhaust flames on overrun

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I believe i'm right in saying that the flames you see coming out of the exhaust when the driver is off the throttle is unburnt fuel igniting from the hot exhaust pipes. What I don't understand is why there is any unburnt fuel in the first place. Surely, for reasons of fuel consumption, unburnt fuel should be kept to an absolute minimum. Why is the engine being over fuelled, or fuelled at all, on the overrun? Surely optimum combustion efficiency occurs at a stoichiometric AFR?

Jersey Tom
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Most passenger cars will be tuned 14.7 AFR or a touch lean for fuel economy, but you will develop max torque running a bit rich. For a NA engine, in the 13.0 AFR range. For a turbo car a bit richer than that even. That is what you would tune your all out race map for (though the driver I believe can adjust this on the steering wheel).

So you run a little rich to begin with, but the big thing is transient effect. Transient engine tuning is real important and hard to nail. The instant before you lift the throttle and are at WOT at high revs, the injectors are dumping heaps of fuel into the engine. When you lift quickly and close the throttle plates there will be a brief spike where it'll go real rich as the ECU adjusts and zips to another spot on the tune map. You can put in modifiers for the steady state map to reduce fuel quickly when there's a real high negative throttle derivative to reduce that kinda thing, but it probably won't go away all the time.

Or at least that's my understanding.
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Belatti
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Jersey Tom explained quite well why do we have fuel there, then:

F1 engines has quite big valve overlap. Maybe more than 80 crankshaft degrees (thanks to the acoustic tuning in the intake and exhaust pipe)

When you downshift, rpm increase A LOT in a reduced period of time. In that moment the engine works like a huge vacumm pump, sucking lots of air (and fuel) from the intake. Because the mentioned valve overlap, some fuel goes directly from the intake to the exhaust

Here, an old thread about valve overlap:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4176&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30
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Jersey Tom
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Nah.. lots of overlap wouldnt shoot air/fuel from the intake to the exhaust. Think about where the valves are located and where the suction is coming from on the intake stroke. It won't just go "straight through." It can't.

But given that theres heaps more fuel for how much air is available, on the exhaust stroke a lot of excess fuel gets dumped out.
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Belatti
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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I understand that valve overlap helps A LOT!
The simple presence of exesive fuel doesnt necesarily end up burning in the exhaust.
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Ray
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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When you shut the throttle blades closed really quickly, there is fuel in the plenum but not air because you closed the butterflies. And you get flames.

williamssam
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Ray wrote:When you shut the throttle blades closed really quickly, there is fuel in the plenum but not air because you closed the butterflies. And you get flames.
But aren't the injectors on the other side of the throttle butterfles to the plenum, therefore the amount of air and fuel shouldn't be any different to normal?

Thanks for the replies guys, sounds like it's all down to the fuel map.

Jersey Tom
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Yea but the throttle doesnt close instantly. It ramps closed. Quickly, admittedly. But while its ramping down and the engine is unloaded, it doesn't need all the excess fuel.
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riff_raff
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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"Why is the engine being over fuelled, or fuelled at all, on the overrun?"

For the most important reason of all: Because flames shooting out the exhaust pipes looks totally cool!
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Fridge13
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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I agree Riff Raff!!

from what i know (which is not a lot), there is a massive overlap in intake and exhaust valves. As direct injection is banned, the incoming charge of air is full of fuel. My understanding is that it is not really the piston that pushes the air out on the exhaust stroke, it is momentum of air from the incoming charge and the still burning gasses from the combustion stroke. This is why they have such massive overlap of valves opening, it results in more power, but the compromise is reduced fuel efficiency.

someone please correct me if anything i have said is remotely wrong(always like learning new stuff!)

Fridge13
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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I agree Riff Raff!!

from what i know (which is not a lot), there is a massive overlap in intake and exhaust valves. As direct injection is banned, the incoming charge of air is full of fuel. My understanding is that it is not really the piston that pushes the air out on the exhaust stroke, it is momentum of air from the incoming charge and the still burning gasses from the combustion stroke. This is why they have such massive overlap of valves opening, it results in more power, but the compromise is reduced fuel efficiency.

someone please correct me if anything i have said is remotely wrong(always like learning new stuff!)

Jersey Tom
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Not exactly right.. think about it. Doesn't even make sense. Intake stroke happens AFTER the exhaust stroke. No way the intake charge could force the exhaust out.

Towards the end of the power stroke the exhaust valve "blows down" whatever pressure is left in the cylinder, so that on the exhaust stroke there's less resistance to go against. Exhaust stroke happens, forcing most of the exhaust gas out. At high RPMs, this is at high velocity and high exhaust gas momentum. Intake valve opens for the intake stroke. Exhaust valve remains open briefly as before the movement of the piston can generate enough pressure differential to bring intake charge in, the momentum of the exhaust gas traveling out the port can develop some negative pressure and suck extra air in from the intake valve.

High RPM, more exhaust momentum, better overlap works. Makes for crap performance in the low RPM range.

So its possible some intake charge does make it out the exhaust valve, but a lot of overrun flames come from decel fuel cut, or lack thereof.
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EfiOz
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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You're all right except no one has mentioned the main factor whcih is the high mount injectors.

On deceleration, the throttle blades are shut so the injector shoots straight onto the back of it. This forms the fuel from a homogenous mist back into a liquid with large droplets. The larger the droplets, the longer it takes to burn. At that engine speed, the fuel spends just enough time in the chamber to combust, but not completely. So it keeps burning all the way out the exhaust pipe.

It's actually quite hard to cause exhaust flames without this.
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Fridge13
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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what about direct injection that the V8 Super cars use, they frequently have massive flames.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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I'll try to summarize what we wrote here:

Variable valve timing

1. In any engine there is valve overlap, as Belatti, Riff_Raff and Fridge13 explain.

In the following pictures, the blue arc shows the time the intake is open, the red arc shows the time the exhaust is open. Notice the arcs overlap in a regular car and overlap a lot in a racing engine.

Standard Camshaft: the overlap is small (red and blue segments of circle on the top)
Image

Performance Camshaft: huge overlap. Both valves are open for a long time.
Image

Why do you need to have overlapping valve openings? Because air has inertia. I copy and paste an explanation I already gave here, in line with Fridge13 and Riff Raff:
If you close the intake valve just when the piston reaches the bottom of its movement (what is called "BDC" or "Bottom Dead Center"), you are going to stop the inrush of air right when is entering the cylinder at its highest speed.

The air has inertia, like almost anything in this world. So, you left the valve open a little more time, with the final effect that, even while the cylinder is moving up, on the compression stroke, the air is still entering the cylinder because of that inertia, giving you a little extra mixture inside the cylinder.

The opposite is true on the exhaust stroke: even when the piston has moved away from the TDC (top dead center) and it's starting to move down, (theoretically it has started the intake stroke), the air is exiting at top speed and it "pulls" a little extra air out.

Finally, when you overlap the exit and intake of air, the exiting air helps to "pull" in the intake air.

This effect of the "inertia of the air" is more noticeable at high rpms, simply because the air is moving faster. This is why the overlap of the valves is greater in race engines, that develop ultra-high rpms.
2. I copy another of my posts verbatim:

When you close the throttle, the engine manifold vacuum increases. I think this is the same thing that happens when you block the pipe of a vacuum cleaner with your hand, for example.

On carburated cars, like NASCAR (ehem...), the 'idle port', (below the throttle plates), is then subjected to high intake manifold vacuum throwing extra fuel into the combustion chamber.

On some cars, injectors are located between the throttle plate and the intake valve. The intake engine vacuum on deceleration pulls fuel from these injectors and send it to the cylinders.

In modern cars the injectors have a tight shut-off on deceleration to avoid that, specially at normal, highway speeds, so flames don't come out of them (I think F1 cars behave in the same way).

3. There are more things: at low rpm the spark is not as energetic as at high rpm and when you close the throttle there is less air in the mixture.

Actually there are "flamethrowers kits" that cut the spark and use an ignition coil in the exhaust for you to impress your friends:

Image

4. Finally, many racing engines use more fuel than needed to cool the cylinders. This is notorious in NASCAR aspirated engines, but it is also widely used in F1.
Ciro