Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Laserguru
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Laserguru » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:42 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:41 pm
Mr.G wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:57 pm
Can somebody well known of the regulation explain what exactly is "bannned" regarding the oil "consuption"?

Would it be possible to "bleed" the oil trough the turbocharger? I mean is TC in the same regulations about oil usage as the ICE?
Nothing is banned, they can still burn oil just the amount the ICE consumes is regulated to .6 liters per 100km or .7qt per 60mi. Which is still a ridiculous amount. Most road cars that have oil consumption issues are burning a liter per 1,600km not per 160km like is allowed in f1. That's a 1,000% difference.
Hmm I do not agree that nothing is banned.

Turbine and compressor are not part of the engine in the 2018 F1 Technical Regulations under appendix 2 power unit systems, functions and components. They are part of PU pressure carging system. I see where you are going.



ARTICLE 20 : ENGINE OIL
20.1 Purpose of Article 20 :
20.1.1 The purpose of this Article is to ensure that the engine oil used in Formula One is engine oil as this term is generally understood. The function of an engine oil is to lubricate moving parts, to improve the overall efficiency of the engine by reducing friction and to reduce wear. It also cleans, inhibits corrosion, improves sealing, and cools the engine by carrying heat away from moving parts. Engine oils should not enhance the properties of the fuel nor energize the combustion. The presence of any component that cannot be rationally associated with the defined functions of the engine oil will be deemed unacceptable.
20.1.2 Any engine oil, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this regulation, will be deemed to be outside it.



Literally you are not allowed to use engine oil for anything not mentioned in 20.1.1 #-o.
Engineering thrives on communication.

shady
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Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:31 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by shady » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:55 pm

You cant fully seal the combustion chamber, which is why there is a tolerance set.. still excessive, but within that tolerance theres 'incidental' consumption which is where HPP and Ferrari live..

Everyone seems to casually forget that last four years the HPP PU would smoke a lot too.

godlameroso
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Location: Miami FL

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:57 pm

Laserguru wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:42 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:41 pm
Mr.G wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:57 pm
Can somebody well known of the regulation explain what exactly is "bannned" regarding the oil "consuption"?

Would it be possible to "bleed" the oil trough the turbocharger? I mean is TC in the same regulations about oil usage as the ICE?
Nothing is banned, they can still burn oil just the amount the ICE consumes is regulated to .6 liters per 100km or .7qt per 60mi. Which is still a ridiculous amount. Most road cars that have oil consumption issues are burning a liter per 1,600km not per 160km like is allowed in f1. That's a 1,000% difference.
Hmm I do not agree that nothing is banned.

Turbine and compressor are not part of the engine in the 2018 F1 Technical Regulations under appendix 2 power unit systems, functions and components. They are part of PU pressure carging system. I see where you are going.



ARTICLE 20 : ENGINE OIL
20.1 Purpose of Article 20 :
20.1.1 The purpose of this Article is to ensure that the engine oil used in Formula One is engine oil as this term is generally understood. The function of an engine oil is to lubricate moving parts, to improve the overall efficiency of the engine by reducing friction and to reduce wear. It also cleans, inhibits corrosion, improves sealing, and cools the engine by carrying heat away from moving parts. Engine oils should not enhance the properties of the fuel nor energize the combustion. The presence of any component that cannot be rationally associated with the defined functions of the engine oil will be deemed unacceptable.
20.1.2 Any engine oil, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this regulation, will be deemed to be outside it.



Literally you are not allowed to use engine oil for anything not mentioned in 20.1.1 #-o.
How do you police it though?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

stevesingo
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Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:28 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by stevesingo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:49 pm

So, if a fluid which has a primary purpose of cooling and lubricating the MGU-H, were to leak through a seal in to the compressor housing...

Laserguru
1
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:12 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Laserguru » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:39 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:57 pm
Laserguru wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:42 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:41 pm


Nothing is banned, they can still burn oil just the amount the ICE consumes is regulated to .6 liters per 100km or .7qt per 60mi. Which is still a ridiculous amount. Most road cars that have oil consumption issues are burning a liter per 1,600km not per 160km like is allowed in f1. That's a 1,000% difference.
Hmm I do not agree that nothing is banned.

Turbine and compressor are not part of the engine in the 2018 F1 Technical Regulations under appendix 2 power unit systems, functions and components. They are part of PU pressure carging system. I see where you are going.



ARTICLE 20 : ENGINE OIL
20.1 Purpose of Article 20 :
20.1.1 The purpose of this Article is to ensure that the engine oil used in Formula One is engine oil as this term is generally understood. The function of an engine oil is to lubricate moving parts, to improve the overall efficiency of the engine by reducing friction and to reduce wear. It also cleans, inhibits corrosion, improves sealing, and cools the engine by carrying heat away from moving parts. Engine oils should not enhance the properties of the fuel nor energize the combustion. The presence of any component that cannot be rationally associated with the defined functions of the engine oil will be deemed unacceptable.
20.1.2 Any engine oil, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this regulation, will be deemed to be outside it.



Literally you are not allowed to use engine oil for anything not mentioned in 20.1.1 #-o.
How do you police it though?
That is the big question, isn’t it always wih rules? The fia thinks they can govern it by measuring the oil tank level at all time (article 7.7), realtime, but hey they still don’t know where it went when missing. I feel they are especially interested during Q3, to monitor if the oil tank level suddenly drops for particular engines and/or teams. They do so already for a few races if I am correct, may also be the reason for the fia directive at the beginning of the year that all engine hw and sw must be the same, even when teams already believe they get the same. But that is getting off topic. To my opinion if you stay below the ruled limit you still can do a lot. As we see when the Ferrari Power Unit ignites (who does not love this)? Which is why we ask ourselves these questions :D . Maybe they create another rule to capture the excessive oil that is now dumped near the exhaust, clearly visible so far only on the ferrari power unit. Still wondering what the mysterious area around this oil dump hose on the SF71H is for though.

Article 20 defines what is allowed as engine oil, that you can only use one type, that you must hand over a sample to the fia for approval prior to the race, how the fia analyses the oil and so on. So one needs to outsmart the fia here too.
Engineering thrives on communication.

Mr.G
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Location: Slovakia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Mr.G » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:19 am

stevesingo wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:49 pm
So, if a fluid which has a primary purpose of cooling and lubricating the MGU-H, were to leak through a seal in to the compressor housing...
Yes, that is what I want to point out, no active valves and still oil as the fuel...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

J.A.W.
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Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by J.A.W. » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:58 am

Laserguru wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:42 pm
...
ARTICLE 20 : ENGINE OIL
20.1 Purpose of Article 20 :
20.1.1 The purpose of this Article is to ensure that the engine oil used in Formula One is engine oil as this term is generally understood. The function of an engine oil is to lubricate moving parts, to improve the overall efficiency of the engine by reducing friction and to reduce wear. It also cleans, inhibits corrosion,
improves sealing, and cools the engine by carrying heat away from moving parts. Engine oils should not enhance the properties of the fuel nor energize the combustion. The presence of any component that cannot be rationally associated with the defined functions of the engine oil will be deemed unacceptable.
20.1.2 Any engine oil, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this regulation, will be deemed to be outside it.

Literally you are not allowed to use engine oil for anything not mentioned in 20.1.1 #-o.

However, given that F1 does not attempt to adhere to regular road-type emission controls, (gaseous from fuel/oil - let alone sound level), there is an 'out' for F1 lubricating 'oil' - in utilizing certain
( proscribed for road-use) organo-metallic compounds - which do indeed offer a "rational" advantage in
lubricity, but also 'just happen to' function well, as effective fuel catalysts - such as TEL..

Could this be another example of the FIA seeming to respond via quotable 'regs' to the 'contentious' publically discussed (& quite early on, in this very forum) issue of synergistic 'oil burning' as a power-aid, yet not actually resorting to 'cutting off at the knees', a fundamental issue, which is to keep the tight rule-prescribed ICE functioning properly power/reliability-wise, '& in the manner to which they have become accustomed'..
Dr Zachary Smith sez..
"Yes.. spare us your ridiculous remarks, you insensitive idiot!"

Sieper
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Sieper » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:11 am

Mr.G wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:19 am
stevesingo wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:49 pm
So, if a fluid which has a primary purpose of cooling and lubricating the MGU-H, were to leak through a seal in to the compressor housing...
Yes, that is what I want to point out, no active valves and still oil as the fuel...
But this is in fact directly in violation of 20.1.1, so now we only have to wait on FIA actually prosecuting on this, which they likely won’t (up to the limit of 0,6l per 100km).

Mr.G
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Location: Slovakia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Mr.G » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:28 pm

Sieper wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:11 am
Mr.G wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:19 am
stevesingo wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:49 pm
So, if a fluid which has a primary purpose of cooling and lubricating the MGU-H, were to leak through a seal in to the compressor housing...
Yes, that is what I want to point out, no active valves and still oil as the fuel...
But this is in fact directly in violation of 20.1.1, so now we only have to wait on FIA actually prosecuting on this, which they likely won’t (up to the limit of 0,6l per 100km).
If they can sell it as lubricating the turbine then not, it is in limits... It's the same kind of solution as legality slot, nose cross-sections with s duct, etc... Just another exploited loophole...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

Sieper
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Sieper » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:04 pm

It seems very likely this is the way Ferrari will indeed try to sell it as you say. For this year they are introducing the superflouos oil via the turbo it seems. But will FIA again buy this, it still does not comply with 20.1.1.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:33 pm

Ferrari oil system is much hotter than the other manufacturers that's why you see more smoke and why they burn more oil.

stevesingo
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Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:28 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by stevesingo » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:51 pm

Sieper wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:11 am
Mr.G wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:19 am
stevesingo wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:49 pm
So, if a fluid which has a primary purpose of cooling and lubricating the MGU-H, were to leak through a seal in to the compressor housing...
Yes, that is what I want to point out, no active valves and still oil as the fuel...
But this is in fact directly in violation of 20.1.1, so now we only have to wait on FIA actually prosecuting on this, which they likely won’t (up to the limit of 0,6l per 100km).
20.1.1 The purpose of this Article is to ensure that the engine oil used in Formula One is engine oil as this term is generally understood. The function of an engine oil is to lubricate moving parts, to improve the overall efficiency of the engine by reducing friction and to reduce wear. It also cleans, inhibits corrosion, improves sealing, and cools the engine by carrying heat away from moving parts. Engine oil should not enhance the properties of the fuel nor energize the combustion. The presence of any component that cannot be rationally associated with the defined functions of the engine oil will be deemed unacceptable.

Given that the current definition of the PUs is just that PU. The PU is made up of 5 components, ES, CE, MGU-K MGU-H and ICE (internal combustion engine). It could be argued that the ICE oil is not the same as the MGU-H oil. Therefore MGU-H oil could be ingested through the compressor side seals at any rate you would want and still not breach 20.1.1.

Sieper
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by Sieper » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:21 pm

Mgu-h oil is oil. Likely this will be the play indeed but If FIA will accept this (I gues so, they have been allowing for oil burn for 4 years now) is the question. Oil is oil (engine) though, you are not allowed several oil tanks. Just oil and fuel.

gcdugas
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by gcdugas » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:28 pm

For those who say "nothing has been banned".... the venting of crankcase oil vapor must go into the atmosphere rather than being piped into the airbox. That HAS BEEN BANNED.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

3jawchuck
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit

Post by 3jawchuck » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:26 pm

Sieper wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:21 pm
Mgu-h oil is oil. Likely this will be the play indeed but If FIA will accept this (I gues so, they have been allowing for oil burn for 4 years now) is the question. Oil is oil (engine) though, you are not allowed several oil tanks. Just oil and fuel.
Is it actually not allowed to use multiple tanks? The technical regulations (article 7) refer to oil tanks (plural) and only mentions measurement of the main oil tank level (§7.7). Couldn't there be entirely different oil circuits for different systems?

How are the FIA certain that no additional oil is being used in ways they don't permit?
Last edited by 3jawchuck on Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.