2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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henry
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Thinking about how teams could measure each other’s power output graphs I came to this list of essential data and how they might obtain it.

Engine rpm. - audio analysis
Road speed - gps data points
Air speed - road speed + atmospheric wind speed and direction from meteorology.
Road gradient - from 3D circuit map
Air density - from meteorology
Frontal area - from head on photographs
Mass - the hardest to get, can’t be measured directly so probably by iteration with bounds set by regs and stint length, etc
Cd - derived from the above using a refinement, more terms, of the calcs proposed by @mudflap
They have the opportunity to sample multiple data points for multiple gear pairs.
Rotating inertia - again more terms and multiple data points applied to @mudflap’s methodology
Once established they might well substitute an additional lumped mass for this for each gear ratio

Armed with this and enough samples and statistical methods I would expect the engine teams to know pretty accurately what the power profiles of the others are. They will typically quote 1 magic number but they’ll know power vs rpm and probably for each deployment modes.

They could use their own cars to validate their methods and maybe even check installed power vs Dyno power.

The trickiest item is vehicle mass, maybe comparison of accelerations against road gradient might give a clue. The effects will be small but with enough data points who knows.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

roon
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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toraabe wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:14 am
I have drove several buses and trucks. I was always most satisfied when I got a Scania. Their engines are the most drivable,and has excellent tourqe curve..... On small engines an electrical supercharger can compensate at low rpm. The Scania engine had good response from 7-800 rpm ;) http://www.trucktrend.com/news/1310-the ... 16-torque/
This Scania engine injects diesel fuel at up to 35k psi. F1 is limited to ~7k psi. Barring the rules, what limits gasoline compression?

OO7
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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For what it's worth, in terms of analysing footage, the following is the new FOM telemetry graphics:
Image
As you can see, there's no torque and brake pedal information and more importantly for this thread, no RPM information. :roll:
Last edited by OO7 on Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AJI
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Blaze1 wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:30 pm
For what it's worth, in terms of analysing footage, the following is the new FOM telemetry graphics:
https://imgur.com/jjaAVkG.gif
As you can see, torque pedal or brake information and more importantly for this thread, no RPM information. :roll:
They just can't help themselves can they. The worst part is, l'm gonna miss that camera view more than RPM and Throttle/brake info...

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henry
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Blaze1 wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:30 pm
For what it's worth, in terms of analysing footage, the following is the new FOM telemetry graphics:
https://imgur.com/jjaAVkG.gif
As you can see, there's no torque and brake pedal information and more importantly for this thread, no RPM information. :roll:
Not much information there.

However, it reminds me that DRS activation right get in the way of estimating Cd.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

wuzak
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Mudflap wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:56 am
Image
Great effort.

Some funny numbers, though.
1,208hp @ 11,388rpm at 1.61s!

johnny comelately
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Have posted elsewhere regarding the smoky engines, but no opinions, which might indicate that it is an incorrect idea,but:

They could be running NO oil rings?

advantage is less friction
possible with pressure difference control
seem to be only smoky when idle or after idle which could relate to throttling

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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wuzak wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:22 am
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:56 am
https://i.imgur.com/BOJNcH1.png
Great effort.

Some funny numbers, though.
1,208hp @ 11,388rpm at 1.61s!
It is down to speedo sampling. Eg if it jumps by 4 kph in 0.25 sec the acceleration and hence calculated power is huge. The in the next 0.25 sec it only goes up 1 kph and instantaneous power is very low. It is very unfortunate that they won't release proper telemetry

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henry
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Mudflap wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:55 am
wuzak wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:22 am
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:56 am
https://i.imgur.com/BOJNcH1.png
Great effort.

Some funny numbers, though.
1,208hp @ 11,388rpm at 1.61s!
It is down to speedo sampling. Eg if it jumps by 4 kph in 0.25 sec the acceleration and hence calculated power is huge. The in the next 0.25 sec it only goes up 1 kph and instantaneous power is very low. It is very unfortunate that they won't release proper telemetry
As I have said earlier if your smooth the speed curve you would see quite useful numbers.

The speed curve is inherently smooth. The only significant causes of discontinuity are DRS engagement/disengagement, PU mode switch and, of course, gear change.

Using your data smoothed using a cubic it was possible to obtain a PU power curve, in 7th gear, with a peak of 683 KW (930 up) which is the sort of number that is touted as Ferrari’s qualifying peak.

To achieve that I used the following:

Car mass 791 kg *
Frontal area 1.442 m^2
Cd @260 kph 0.86
Cd @313 kph 0.72
Transmission efficiency 0.95

* base mass 728 kg, fuel 7kg, referred inertia for wheels & tyres 56 kg (I did some calcs back when 17” wheels were proposed)

The Cd values are in the ballbark of the values Prof Limebeer gives in his 2013 paper “ Optimal control of Formula One car energy recovery systems “ 0.92 and 0.83. The change in Cd is important to make the lower part of the power curve for the two gears co-linear.

The wheel inertia mass “feels” high, if it is the Cd values would rise to bring the peak power to the target.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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henry
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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A further thought.

The Cd figures I arrived at seemed low in relation to Prof Limebeers, which were for narrower cars and tyres.

I looked at the effect of wind speed. In September in Singapore the wind speed and direction is fairly stable averaging 6 knots tailwind down straight 1. I used the numbers for Changi airport.

Adding this to my calcs brought the Cd figures to 0.9 low speed and 0.8 high speed, which seem more reasonable. The DRS would be open which would lower them slightly when comparing with the Prof.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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johnny comelately wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:43 pm
Have posted elsewhere regarding the smoky engines, but no opinions, which might indicate that it is an incorrect idea,but:

They could be running NO oil rings?

advantage is less friction
possible with pressure difference control
seem to be only smoky when idle or after idle which could relate to throttling
Honda have tried a single ring piston in the 2002 V10 which led to a 10 kW increase in power, however the oil consumption was in excess of 3l/100 km. I think they ended up using this as a qualy engine.

I can't see anyone not using an oil ring, particularly when I understand Renault and Honda claim consumptions of 0.1 l/100km.

johnny comelately
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Are all the ICE suppliers using Variable Intake lengths?
Any thoughts on the hp contribution in these turbo engines

Skippon
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Yes - variable trumpets became legal from 2015 season.

johnny comelately
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Skippon wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:36 am
Yes - variable trumpets became legal from 2015 season.
Yes, thank you, but I was just wondering if they are all using it (Ferrari in question??)

Skippon
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I would guess so as it does make a greater contribution than any losses incurred elsewhere..............