Williams FW41 Mercedes

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PhillipM
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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The case has been titanium for years....

Edit Thunder: don't be rude ;)

designf1
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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Morteza
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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China - Thursday

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Via @AlbertFabrega

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Via AMuS
Last edited by Morteza on Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Vanja #66
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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Looking at that Williams and side pods, I have an idea about under cut. Will have to make some rough sketches, but I feel there may be a problem with an undercut this big and almost flat in top view. Or at least, a potential for problem, depends a lot on full car aero.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

CLKGTR
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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I think Williams got a lot additional drag compared to 2017 thanks to concept change and didn't gain enough downforce to compensate + they don't use their tyres well (for mechanical or aero reasons or both). Car doesn't lack aero complexity, but it can bite you too if you change too much at the same time, which they did. Just look at Mercedes how cautious they are when it comes to big changes to their car concept. And they have so much more manpower and money. Hopefully they'll be able to extract and understand more because they should be well above the Sauber, compared where they were in 2017.

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roadie
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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Great pictures, thank you.

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ScrewCaptain27
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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Front bulkhead detail and comparison with 2017 (via F1i.com):
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Mr Brooksy
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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Very interesting claim by AMuS (assuming the translator it's correct).

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -kuehlung/

That Williams do know what the issue is and it's centred around the cooling and rear Aero. They even claim once Williams sort the issue, the car will be up to 8 tenths faster!
WilliamsF1 fan since 1989

bill shoe
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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Thoughts on article above-

Merc has been known to use a complicated cooling arrangement from beginning of 1.6L turbo era, with rumors of combined air-water and air-air intercoolers, among other things.

Article says Paddy Lowe directed Williams to do same complicated cooling system instead of more tradition less-complicated cooling systems for oil, engine coolant, battery, etc. But the new complicated system is not working out which requires the powertrain to run more conservatively and the rear end bodywork to be massively opened. If they figure out the problems then they will gain up to 0.8 seconds, yes.

My humble perspective-
Interesting example of a high-level technical person trying to bring specific solutions with him-- the solutions don't work if they are not understood. Paddy would probably be better off building long-term technical/human structures and processes, rather than trying to copy specific Merc widgets. So any real value in the technical person exists in their ability to create technical organizations, rather than their ability to bring specific technical knowledge x/y/z. Information in itself is less valuable than commonly thought. Organization building is more important. IP is not irrelevant, but it's certainly overblown.

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Mr Brooksy
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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bill shoe wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:08 am
Thoughts on article above-

Merc has been known to use a complicated cooling arrangement from beginning of 1.6L turbo era, with rumors of combined air-water and air-air intercoolers, among other things.

Article says Paddy Lowe directed Williams to do same complicated cooling system instead of more tradition less-complicated cooling systems for oil, engine coolant, battery, etc. But the new complicated system is not working out which requires the powertrain to run more conservatively and the rear end bodywork to be massively opened. If they figure out the problems then they will gain up to 0.8 seconds, yes.

My humble perspective-
Interesting example of a high-level technical person trying to bring specific solutions with him-- the solutions don't work if they are not understood. Paddy would probably be better off building long-term technical/human structures and processes, rather than trying to copy specific Merc widgets. So any real value in the technical person exists in their ability to create technical organizations, rather than their ability to bring specific technical knowledge x/y/z. Information in itself is less valuable than commonly thought. Organization building is more important. IP is not irrelevant, but it's certainly overblown.
I agree to a point with your perspective, however I think there's also the element that you need to bring new ideas to your team to stretch their understanding. Has Paddy done too much too early and the team really don't understand it? Probably, but at the same time if he waited for a year or two to introduce the Merc concepts (obviously there's a number of de Beers concepts in there too), then Williams would be even further behind in those departments.

Knowledged without understanding produces products that don't meet capabilities, on the flip side sticking with what you understand produces the same thing you've always produced.

I kind of feel like Paddy might have over extended the team further than they could jump in the short term, but it will come down to the ability of the team to understand this new philosophy and information and get the most out of it.

I'm now interested to see if they will be delivering a new rear end to the Williams FW41 in Barcelona or the next few races.
WilliamsF1 fan since 1989

netoperek
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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For a while front end had been pointed out as a probable source of performance issues, with a car being hard to handle and unstable in corner entry phase. Granted, reported problems with power delivery were focusing thermals limiting raw power available, but I have not read too much about traction issues. If there are any rear side downforce deficits, they IMO are a result of a quick fix to engine overheating, not a design failure from the get go. I think we will see some similar updates in all Mercedes powered cars if it's indeed a PU flaw and FI-Williams will demand an update/solution. With Mercedes sitting on top of WCC and other 2 Merc powered teams dead bottom I assume Mercedes engine department has been aware there's something tricky long time ago, but decided not to share this intel with their customers at that point. Now they have quite a head start, so providing a working solution or at least a guide line, would be only good for their business.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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Look at the ultra detailing ala Mercedes, Williams have hung their hat where they cannot reach it.
At least, not without a pole.
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LH44

AnthonyG
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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Mr Brooksy wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:50 am
Knowledged without understanding produces products that don't meet capabilities, on the flip side sticking with what you understand produces the same thing you've always produced.

I kind of feel like Paddy might have over extended the team further than they could jump in the short term, but it will come down to the ability of the team to understand this new philosophy and information and get the most out of it.
Long term bla-bla-bla. Not to be disrespectful, but Williams has had what (?) ... 2-3 good years in the past 14 years? At one point the time for long term building is up and you should have a different approach.

Also, rationally I don't think it's a disaster. Those 8 tenths are there and will make the car a points scorer. A more conservative car could be short of point-scoring potential.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

netoperek
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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Back to the topic - I can't see Williams redesigning whole cooling solution to a new concept in the middle of a season. It's either stick with it and try to make it work or add some more and more radiators and air flow until it's sufficient, sacrificing performance in the process. If the potential from cooling alone has been quantified as 0.8s, my bet is that's how much of a difference have been measured while implementing that second, quick fix solution.
PlatinumZealot, it's pretty obvious Mercedes have much more resources, but those guys in Grove are no idiots, too. They will get there, it will only take some more time. And some balls from the board to do what has to be done to have some ambition and dignity left ;)
Edit: I just read that Paddy estimates cooling, brakes and corner stability issues add up to 2s. Plan is to fix those issues in the next 3 months.

Edit Thunder: Removed Driver Talk

carisi2k
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Re: Williams FW41 Mercedes

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That overheating issue might not be williams related either. The factory mercedes also seem to have overheating issues which might explain why lewis hasn't waltzed away with the championship after getting stuck behind seb at Australia. Maybe Mercedes hasn't given Williams the right numbers.