FIA may move to equalise F1 engines further

[Scotracer]

The FIA may be contemplating how to further equalise the performance of the engines in F1.

Together with the 19,000 rpm limit, the sport is in the midst of a so-called 'freeze' on most engine development, meaning that the basic power plants currently installed in teams' cars will remain unchanged for several years.

An arguable glitch in the cost-cutting rule, however, is that some engine manufacturers are enjoying a performance advantage over their rivals.

Ferrari is said to have prepared best for the engine freeze, now regularly dominating the speed traps at F1 circuits, but Mercedes-Benz and BMW are also widely believed to have clearly more powerful 2.4 litre V8 units than Renault, Toyota and Honda.


The Spanish newspaper Diario AS is reporting that the FIA is thinking about redressing the balance by introducing some sort of engine performance limiter in 2009, controlled via the standard ECU.

The less likely option cited by AS is the concept of simply opening up some areas of development for those with the less powerful engines so they can catch up with the pacesetters.

This is really making me sick. FFS, this is supposed to be F1. Sooner or later this portion of the forum will be useless.

God I hate the FIA and it's yes men.

[roost89]

Through the ECU? seriously? F1, the so-called pinnacle of motorsport and development, is being turned slowly but surely into a 1-make series, or at least one where the designs are identical but built using a different weave of Carbon Fibre.

When will it stop? The teams should just say 'no' to all this. They, ultimately, have the power.
Soon we'll have standardised body-panels...it's heading that way already!

[ernos5]

OMFG, I'M SO F#$KING PISSED OFF!!!!!!!!!

Y THE F#K DO WE HAVE MANAFACTURERS??????? SO THEY CAN COMPETE WITH EACHOTHER, IF FERRARI HAPPENS TO BE THE BEST TEAM THEN LET IT BE FFS, DUM SHITS, MIGHT AS WELL TURN INTO A1GP WITH SAME CARS AND ENGINE F#$KING FIA LOSERS!!!

[Scotracer]

Words fail me at this prospect. Not at this specific topic but the entire F1 ethos right now. If you had told F1 fans and manufacturers 5 years ago that engine development would be completely frozen and the FIA giving dispensation to teams with less power (and c'mon, the max difference between the engines will be 40BHP tops; Ferrari 780BHP and Toyota 740BHP) they would laugh at you. I want to laugh at all this but I can't. I love F1 too much to do so.

If we look at motorsport in general it's really becoming a joke.

Touring cars: S2000 spec cars, which are basically modified road cars are now the norm. Gone are the SuperTourers.
World Rally: WRC spec cars are being banned come 2010 and S2000 regulation cars with even less power will be the norm
MotoGP: Engines were reduced to 800cc but the machines are still really quick -- will we see further reductions?
CART: Gone are the unlimited Turbo monsters with close to 1000BHP and now you have a car that uses its turbo to control noise levels and nothing else.
Sports cars: Diesel is becoming the powertrain of choice, making the cars sound pathetic.

Where is the refuse of the speed freak?

[zac510]

With what, a spec ignition curve?

Aussie V8 supercars practically already have that anyway (regulated advance limit).

[Steven]

Actually, I'm not all against this idea. At least not while this annoying engine freeze is in place.

Basically, teams like Renault, Honda or Toyota who have less power in their frozen engines otherwise have to sit back and bit through it, rather than being able to work on it.

The rule of the engine freeze is basically a problem, and I think equalising the engines for the time being would be a reasonable solution, on the condition that it will disappear when the engine freeze is lifted.

And btw... KERS is also meant to be discussed here, so at least this forum can be used for some reason after all

[timbo]

Don't find this idea logical at all. Remember Schumacher's engine failure at Suzuka 2006, I bet there's a connection between Ferrari spending their budget to prepare for engine freeze. And Renault spent everything for 2006 and now suffers because of that, that's THEIR desision.

Think of this. Say Honda (or any other team) stops any development of 2008 car midway thru season and develops best chassis and KERS system for 2009. Now what, next year FIA would 'equalize' chassis by putting, say, extra ballast in the best chassis? Ain't that lame?

PS. OK, there's no chassis freeze and chassis development is legal. But who told that engine "freeze" and "mandatory equality" are the same?

[Belatti]

Tomba, that is too conformist to me!

[-X

FIA will make F1 like WRC is since the 300HP rule. Look at WRC: only 2 or 3 manufacturers and a very limited rulebook to work with. People like to see the cars running but there is no real interest in the championship, no one cares about it outside the top teams. If F1 turns into that I´ll become a Indy Car fan (they have customer engines and chassis, but at least they admit it)

I´m starting to think that Manufacturers are indirectly ruining the sport, once for Gentlmen that used to build machines in their workshops.

What may happen if none of all this stupid rules are implemented? Manufacturers will spend even more and more till they see that their return is way less that what they are putting. Slowly they would leave the sport and maybe some (likely Ferrari and Mercedes) will stay to distribute the crumbs. The sport enters an era of indiference by the public and onyl manufacturers left starts to chop budgets, thats the point were independant teams regain control of F1 as it should be... Utopy? Maybe... but who knows!

[Scotracer]

This further shows how a break-away series is needed for the sport. We can't have this. Not just for the sport itself but for the engineers. I am looking for a career in the motorsport industry (I'm graduating this year with Honours in Mechanical Engineering) and all these new limitations on development just make it even harder and less appealing to go into F1.

The FIA is walking a fine line here.

[JiMbO]

this is a stupid idea the fia are turning F1 into a clone of a1gp slowly but surely

[Conceptual]

This further shows how a break-away series is needed for the sport. We can't have this. Not just for the sport itself but for the engineers. I am looking for a career in the motorsport industry (I'm graduating this year with Honours in Mechanical Engineering) and all these new limitations on development just make it even harder and less appealing to go into F1.

The FIA is walking a fine line here.

Subjective arbitration based upon observed performance is no way to handle this. The lower HP teams, Honda, Toyo, ... should do a few "durability" upgrades and try to close the gap. And if there needs to be an equalizer, I think the FIA should simply open up the rev limit a bit to the underperformers. I'm sure that 19,500 RPM would quickly make up that 40HP difference.

But then, it is unfair for the front runners, because they were brilliant enough to produce that power under the limitations, having the rules broken to equalize kind of makes the investment worth ZERO.

Manufacturers want the advantages that their millions buy them. To take them away with subjective equalization removes the desire to spend those millions.

The only way to equalize is to open it up again, or literally, have a spec 2.4L V8, and allow for unlimited KERS usage. That way, the teams build their engines to the same spec, but concentrate their development budget into energy recovery.

Who knows... I'm sure that no matter what is done, it will make a few people very rich, and the teams alot poorer. But that IS what F1 is all about. Money.

Chris

[Scotracer]

One idea I had last year was to add a 500rpm or 1000rpm increase in the rev limit each year. This gives the teams who are lacking in power the chance to claw it back by spending more or better utilising what they have over the teams who already have a lot of power. It gives a limit on development as searching for those last few hundreds revs means nothing if everyone has the same limit. I think this is a way the sport should go but I doubt the FIA and Max with their current agenda would even consider it.

[Steven]

Tomba, that is too conformist to me!

[-X

What may happen if none of all this stupid rules are implemented? Manufacturers will spend even more and more till they see that their return is way less that what they are putting. Slowly they would leave the sport and maybe some (likely Ferrari and Mercedes) will stay to distribute the crumbs. The sport enters an era of indiference by the public and onyl manufacturers left starts to chop budgets, thats the point were independant teams regain control of F1 as it should be... Utopy? Maybe... but who knows!

Well, it's not that I support the limitations, but it is unfair like it is now. You cannot deny that. Teams that currently are lacking HP can hardly do anything about it, which is not serious.

Therefore, there are two options, one of which is equalling everthing as long as the freeze stands. No one is happy with a dominant team which is handed certainty of that dominance for 5 years or more.
The other is obviously removing that line that says "changes only allowed for reliability reasons". That is always going to invoke discussions. Regulations should be clear and simple and equal for everyone. Also, opening up this would also allow new manufacturers to enter, contrary to the current situation.

[Belatti]

...

Well, it's not that I support the limitations, but it is unfair like it is now. You cannot deny that. Teams that currently are lacking HP can hardly do anything about it, which is not serious.

Therefore, there are two options, one of which is equalling everthing as long as the freeze stands. No one is happy with a dominant team which is handed certainty of that dominance for 5 years or more.
The other is obviously removing that line that says "changes only allowed for reliability reasons". That is always going to invoke discussions. Regulations should be clear and simple and equal for everyone. Also, opening up this would also allow new manufacturers to enter, contrary to the current situation.

Tomba, you are 100% right about "regulations should be clear and simple and equal for everyone and "opening up this would also allow new manufacturers to enter, contrary to the current situation".

Still, I think that there are things that Honda, Toyota and Renault can do about their lack of HP. I would start investing in clonation. Yes, clonation!
In some years I would have a little Colin Chapman thinking for my team... after all, what these guys needs is a bit of "Lateral Thinking"...

[zac510]

Still, I think that there are things that Honda, Toyota and Renault can do about their lack of HP. I would start investing in clonation. Yes, clonation!
In some years I would have a little Colin Chapman thinking for my team... after all, what these guys needs is a bit of "Lateral Thinking"...

Yes we had a big thread about this the other week, proposing that Ferrari have taken the 'engine freeze' interpretation quite loosely and Renault have taken it seriously, the story being that some teams have made numerous 'reliability changes' that are likely to have also had horsepower changes, too.