2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
AJI
AJI
38
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 2:08 pm
I feel EV adoption will flourish as the world turns to LED lighting, low power electronics, and super high efficiency appliances.

Right now, most homes can change their lightbulbs at a 12:1 Watt ratio. So replacing 12 60w incandescent with 12 5w LED alone is a gigantic drop in world wide consumption when multiplied by tens of millions of homes.

Supply and demand will drive infrastructure expansion by the power companies themselves as they will need to offer new services to raise demand (EV charging stations), or they will be left with high production/low demand, and they will perish.
High output incandescent light bulbs were phased out for domestic use in Australia years ago. When you find a random 60w globe somewhere you show it to your children as a thing of wonder. However, no one told us we had to stop buying millions of air conditioners and 65" TV's and PlayStation's and computers and sound systems though...

Australia has an abundance of electricity generation options. Every one you can think of including uranium (but we don't use that ourselves, we just sell it to the rest of the world because it's nasty or something) and we have a 1st world population that believes that we should have all the electricity we want. We don't care how we get it as long as we get it.
Our problem is the grid. It's HUGE. We have to cover massive distances, there is only so much electricity you can deliver through it, the consumer has to pay for it and the consumer refuses to pay for it.

I know this is an Australia specific problem, but we're not the only country in the world with a grid that currently barely copes with the electricity demands. Adding pure EV's to the fleet will put massive extra demand on any grid. I doubt there's a single country in the world that could support a 50% new EV cars sold by 2025 target without plunging the population into darkness every other day of the week...

gruntguru
gruntguru
453
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

My gut feeling is the difficulty of producing and marketing an EV is far greater than that of upgrading the grid infrastructure to charge it.
je suis charlie

AJI
AJI
38
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

My gut feeling is EV's are coming as soon as they work out how to charge millions of them without crashing the grid.

Take FE or the Tesla P75 race series for example. The tracks don't have the infrastructure to charge the cars, so they have to bring generators with them...

User avatar
godlameroso
373
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Battery energy density is lacking.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

AJI
AJI
38
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

Cold Fussion wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 3:42 am

...There is no way we should have any energy shortages in this country given the over-abundance of every energy generation resource baring hydro.
Yet we do...
But let's not fool ourselves, we created those shortages with an overly eager adoption of 'green' tech, coupled with an idiotically premature phasing out of coal, but the icing on the cake was an extreme weather event that only an actuary would have predicted.
All of the above is besides my point though. A country with an enormous grid and small population needs to localise it's energy needs, not create huge infrastructure interlinks for emergency purposes.
If our government(s) had any balls they would subsidise a national upgrade to the grid at micro localised levels. I'm sure the cost of adding a 'powerwall' to every residence would be cheaper than upgrading the entire grid...

gruntguru
gruntguru
453
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

AJI wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 11:29 am
If our government(s) had any balls they would subsidise a national upgrade to the grid at micro localised levels. I'm sure the cost of adding a 'powerwall' to every residence would be cheaper than upgrading the entire grid...
. . and get sacked - like Jay Weatherill. :D
je suis charlie

AJI
AJI
38
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

gruntguru wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 2:13 am
AJI wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 11:29 am
If our government(s) had any balls they would subsidise a national upgrade to the grid at micro localised levels. I'm sure the cost of adding a 'powerwall' to every residence would be cheaper than upgrading the entire grid...
. . and get sacked - like Jay Weatherill. :D
He installed the biggest powerwall in the world, but he should have put in 100,000 small ones... That's how you win an election!

Ps How many Australians are on this forum anyway?

trinidefender
trinidefender
326
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:37 pm

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

AJI wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 11:29 am
Cold Fussion wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 3:42 am

...There is no way we should have any energy shortages in this country given the over-abundance of every energy generation resource baring hydro.
Yet we do...
But let's not fool ourselves, we created those shortages with an overly eager adoption of 'green' tech, coupled with an idiotically premature phasing out of coal, but the icing on the cake was an extreme weather event that only an actuary would have predicted.
All of the above is besides my point though. A country with an enormous grid and small population needs to localise it's energy needs, not create huge infrastructure interlinks for emergency purposes.
If our government(s) had any balls they would subsidise a national upgrade to the grid at micro localised levels. I'm sure the cost of adding a 'powerwall' to every residence would be cheaper than upgrading the entire grid...
Coal is uneconomical (the reason it is pretty much dead) and very polluting (acid rain, poisoned ground water, high carbon content and soot making the surrounding buildings black). Clean coal is a myth.

Natural gas fuelled combined cycle gas turbines with recovered heat steam turbines are much better. They can be scaled up or down (or by adding or removing gas turbines) to fit needs quite well. They have a much better reaction time to changing grid load requirements and as such fit quite well with renewables (when the wind picks up or dies and when the sun gets blocked). They perfectly fit the requirement for multiple spread out communities over a large area such as Australia with easily adaptable small power stations to power local areas.

Lastly they are pushing 65% efficiency numbers vs coals 20 ish percent.

Now....can we please get back to the actual topic...thanks...

gruntguru
gruntguru
453
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

AJI wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 2:33 am
gruntguru wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 2:13 am
AJI wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 11:29 am
If our government(s) had any balls they would subsidise a national upgrade to the grid at micro localised levels. I'm sure the cost of adding a 'powerwall' to every residence would be cheaper than upgrading the entire grid...
. . and get sacked - like Jay Weatherill. :D
He installed the biggest powerwall in the world, but he should have put in 100,000 small ones... That's how you win an election!
He was aiming for 50,000

"“It’s a rejection of the federal government’s approach – and the state Liberal party’s approach,” Weatherill told Guardian Australia. “We’re not interested in putting our leadership in renewable energy in the hands of people that don’t believe in a renewable energy future.”

Several renewable energy projects have already been slated for the state, including the world’s biggest lithium ion battery, one of the world’s biggest solar thermal plants and the world’s biggest “virtual power plant”, under which solar panels and batteries will be installed on more than 50,000 homes."
(https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... rget-to-75)
je suis charlie

AJI
AJI
38
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

trinidefender wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:06 am
Coal is uneconomical (the reason it is pretty much dead) and very polluting (acid rain, poisoned ground water, high carbon content and soot making the surrounding buildings black). Clean coal is a myth.
I never said it was good, I never said it was clean, I just said we had heaps of it, so for Oz it is actually quite economical…

trinidefender wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:06 am
Natural gas fuelled combined cycle gas turbines with recovered heat steam turbines are much better. They can be scaled up or down (or by adding or removing gas turbines) to fit needs quite well. They have a much better reaction time to changing grid load requirements and as such fit quite well with renewables (when the wind picks up or dies and when the sun gets blocked). They perfectly fit the requirement for multiple spread out communities over a large area such as Australia with easily adaptable small power stations to power local areas.
Or we could just put in heaps of distributed batteries to compliment our vast solar capability?

trinidefender wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:06 am
Lastly they are pushing 65% efficiency numbers vs coals 20 ish percent.
Once again, I'm not pro-coal, neither am I pro gas...

trinidefender wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:06 am
Now....can we please get back to the actual topic...thanks...
Sure. I was actually pondering where this conversation should be moved to now that it has devolved into the Australian Politics of Electricity thread, but in the defence of all involved, this conversation started because we were discussing the relevancy of the tech of the MGU-H vs pure EV, so, it kind of started on-topic :?:, but I'm happy to let it go.

Back on-topic. I love the MGU-H

User avatar
djos
135
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

AJI wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 2:33 am
gruntguru wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 2:13 am
AJI wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 11:29 am
If our government(s) had any balls they would subsidise a national upgrade to the grid at micro localised levels. I'm sure the cost of adding a 'powerwall' to every residence would be cheaper than upgrading the entire grid...
. . and get sacked - like Jay Weatherill. :D
He installed the biggest powerwall in the world, but he should have put in 100,000 small ones... That's how you win an election!

Ps How many Australians are on this forum anyway?
There's likely quite a few of us, some of us don't live in SA any more, but the Adelaide GP is what got me hooked on F1.

Ps I love the current Tech but I'm not sad the H is going.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

AJI
AJI
38
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

djos wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:02 am
There's likely quite a few of us, some of us don't live in SA any more, but the Adelaide GP is what got me hooked on F1.

Ps I love the current Tech but I'm not sad the H is going.
There're a lot of us it would seem! Who knew!
The 1986 Adelaide GP was my first real experience, and my man won the race and championship... It was surreal...

Back on-topic, when the Formula shifted to what could be called a quasi-spec series (the final years of the v10s and the 2.4 v8 era) I tuned out, but when the H was introduced I was intrigued. The fact that we don't really know what they're doing 5 years into this PU spec is amazing. This forum is easily the best for clearly thought through theorising, but in reality we are all just taking educated guesses, and that's why I love the H.

User avatar
henry
254
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

In a press conference on the 2021 engines Andy Cowell gave some interesting numbers for the MGU-H.

Autosport:
He explained the MGU-H provides 60% of the electric energy used to power the other part of the energy recovery system, the MGU-K, and contributes 5% of the current engine's thermal efficiency
This only makes sense if that is 5 percentage points. This puts the H in the region of 65 to 70 kw depending on what number is being achieved in self-sustain-plus mode.

If this is so it takes the time that the K can be deployed per lap to 36 to 40 seconds for 2 MJ and 72 to 80 for 4 MJ, rather more than required at WOT on any circuit.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Zynerji
Zynerji
75
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

That entire press conference was the best of F1 2018.

wuzak
wuzak
356
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

AJI wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 5:28 am
I never said it was good, I never said it was clean, I just said we had heaps of it, so for Oz it is actually quite economical…
Quite cheap when burned in existing power plants.

Not cheap when new plants have to be built.

The problem is that most of the existing plants are getting long in the tooth, and are becoming unreliable.

Over the past summer failures at coal fired power plants caused most of the power shortages in the east cost NEM.

AJI wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 2:33 am
Ps How many Australians are on this forum anyway?
Yep, I'm another....