Pneumatic Valvetrain

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Pneumatic Valvetrain

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I have a simple question about the pneumatic valves.

What gas do they use to operate the system? Does that gas end up in the cylindar? Could the teams use pure Oxygen instead of CO2?

I was thinking about this yesterday, and I really dont know how it works. As far as I have read, the compressed air is used to open the valves, but they are spring closed?

Any info is appreciated!

Chris

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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Oxygen would be a poor choice, every internal component in contact with oxygen would probably oxidize (rust) at an accelerated rate. As well, pure oxygen has a nasty habit of combusting when coming into contact with oils or grease. An inert gas, such as nitrogen is sufficient. As well, the teams already need compressed nitrogen for inflating the tires.

here's more
http://scarbsf1.com/valves.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_valve_gear
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

ginsu
ginsu
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Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 02:23

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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It works just like a mountain bike air shock, although it has a accumulator and reservoir system that keeps up the pressure because it can leak a little bit, I don't think the seals are as great as they could be.

Also, air shocks have non-linear spring rates so the force changes throughout the travel. It would be cool in a road car where you can alter the valve lift dynamically, because you'd get very little resistance at low lift. If you were able to change the shape of the bellows dynamically you could linearize the spring rate, but that's probably pretty difficult in an engine application, although they do it for mountain bikes.
I love to love Senna.

majicmeow
majicmeow
-2
Joined: 05 Feb 2008, 07:03

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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The valves are opened via a camshaft like every other 4 cycle engine. They are closed however by pneumatic pressure. To have a valve spring that is able to repeatedly return a valve to the fully closed position in the time needed under 19000rpm is mechanically impossible/infeasible.

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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So the air is used to CLOSE the valve, not open it.

Thanks for the responses!

Chris

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
8
Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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The gas in the pneumatic valves is the spring Chris...

The compressed gas (I'm not sure whether it's compressed air, or nitrogen) has a lower inertia than a metal spring and is less susceptibble to the harmonics.

I concur with Dave, Oxygen would be a very poor choice, it is highly reactive and would lead to all sorts of problems... It does not end up in the cylinder, the pressurised system is there solely to act as a spring for the valves.
Mike

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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Mikey_s wrote:The gas in the pneumatic valves is the spring Chris...

The compressed gas (I'm not sure whether it's compressed air, or nitrogen) has a lower inertia than a metal spring and is less susceptibble to the harmonics.

I concur with Dave, Oxygen would be a very poor choice, it is highly reactive and would lead to all sorts of problems... It does not end up in the cylinder, the pressurised system is there solely to act as a spring for the valves.
I understand that now. I was thinking about it the other day before posting this, but I thought that the gas was used to open the valve. I'm sure you can see why I thought using pure oxygen might be beneficial over nitrogen in that case.

I understand the system alot better now, and my thanks to the contributors for their informative posts!

Thank you!

Chris

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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We're all here to learn, bud. :wink:
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

majicmeow
majicmeow
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Joined: 05 Feb 2008, 07:03

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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Chances are that nitrogen is used for the job. Nitrogen is very good at resisting changes in pressures/composition under temperature and load (that is why it is so often used in race tires).

I'm not 100% sure, but that's my guess ;)

scarbs
scarbs
393
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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Yup its nitrogen.

You can often see the small auxiliary bottle marked N2 attached to the engine when its being installed, Once installed the engine takes its supply from a tank mounted alongside the radiator.


more info
http://scarbsf1.com/valves.html

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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Conceptual wrote: I'm sure you can see why I thought using pure oxygen might be beneficial over nitrogen in that case.
There must be a rule against that... or not? :-k

Are you thinking what I am thinking?
More O2 means more fuel you can burn means more power and for sure it´s not impossible to handle rust with that amount of O2
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

User avatar
checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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Belatti wrote:Are you thinking what I am thinking?
Well, I think you'd

find the valves less than able to close if you discharged the pressurised propellant gas into the cylinder in any significant amount! As scarbs noted, leaks - involuntary or not - quickly lead to malfunctions. And even if someone had come up with such a system, for what might potentially only be a very momentary benefit, the technical delegates are not going to overlook something that quite clearly necessitates a larger/higher pressure/various separate gas/liquid O2(!) bottle(s) and obvious mechanical changes to the valvetrain and engine controls.

The only substances allowed to enter the cylinder are air and fuel; thus changing the mixture by adding pure O2 - IMHO - would be against the rules. ("Other than engine sump breather gases and fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine, the spraying of any substance into the engine intake air is forbidden." F1 TR 5.11.2/2009) It is also debatable whether such an oxygenising arrangement constitutes a purely "reciprocating poppet valve" (F1 TR 5.1.6/2009) in function anymore. Variable valve lift, variable valve timing (F1 TR 5.6.3/2009) also cause for concern. Of course, all the while the regulations clearly being a secondary to the feasibility and sensibility (at least road relevance-wise) of it all. Thinking about what you, and whomever, could be thinking.

That being said, at least for next year the valvetrain remains homologated also - meaning that it will be very hard (if not impossible) for engineers to even begin to think about offsetting associated mechanical losses with KERS. It is surely a worthwhile avenue of investigation in itself. A cyclic/replenishing recovery-powered pneumatic system could be a step in that direction, or perhaps something electromechanic or hydraulic.

This, in part, exemplifies the inefficiency in incorporating energy recovery externally to a single engine format. Furthermore, it is an argument for continuous energy cycles as opposed to push-to-pass which really isn't that road relevant in itself.

OK, I expanded more on this than I intended. But I'm sure Belatti and/or scarbs can easily either confirm or dispute the very basic notion that intentionally releasing the valve "spring" gas to the cylinder is completely contrary to the operating principle of the current F1 valvetrain itself to begin with. Apart from that (without doing the associated math), carrying the amount of O2 required with the intention of purposefully increasing performance through valve reciprocation cycles is counterintuitive; whether it is in terms of road relevancy, ecology or general design sensibilities. What is there, really, to add to ingesting in excess of 600 liters of air (at WOT) per second? Not much.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

Scuderia Nuvolari
Scuderia Nuvolari
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Joined: 19 Jun 2008, 04:30
Location: Miami

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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From what I remember reading is the nitrogen in the return chamber is at around 200 psi and there is a mechanical steel return spring also.
All are cam driven.

majicmeow
majicmeow
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Joined: 05 Feb 2008, 07:03

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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I have a feeling the system runs a MUCH higher pressure than 200psi ;)

Consider that more than one valve is being closed at the same time (multiple valves across multiple cylinders). When you are using the nitrogen from the system when the original pressure was 200psi, bottle (and hence reserve) pressure would be far below that while the engine is running.

I'm thinking of an operating pressure of upwards of 2000psi (likely more). Sure the actual pressure exerted on the valves may be lower, there has to be that back-up extra pressure in case of leaks.

My 2¢

alexbarwell
alexbarwell
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 14:19
Location: London

Re: Pneumatic Valvetrain

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Does anyone know how things compare with Ducati's desmodromic system where the valves are opened and closed by cam - in the bike series this gives the ducatis a definite advantage on the straights even if the bikes don't do so well in the bendy stuff compared to the air-valve hondas. There is maybe some price to pay with the mechanical inertia, but the air (gas closed) system still would have issues with the compressible/expandable nature of this method. Or have the FIA banned such an approach?
I am an engineer, not a conceptualist :)