General Honda F1 Topic

[McHonda]

I suppose it's coincidence those update figures come out after this article about the gaps in power between the manufacturers. It's almost identical so either that or its Chinese whispers through ripping of different articles.

Ferrari small advantage in qualifying
Mercedes small advantage in race
Renault 30bhp away
Honda 40-50 away

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... s-renault/

[carisi2k]

I think the Renault and Honda numbers are wrong. If the Honda was further away from Mercedes and Ferrari then how did Toro Rosso get that result in Bahrain. Don't give me low downforce or low drag crap because to do well at Bahrain requires good traction and downforce out of the slow corners.

I think the Honda numbers are being skewed by the amazing Red Bull RB14 chassis making the Renault look much better then it actually is. I believe that with the Honda engine the Red Bull would have achieved the same results if not better ones then they currently have. I think the STR13 chassis and it's drivers have not given Honda a true indication of where they are. I think they should put Max back in the Toro Rosso for a test session or a race for punishment just to see where the Honda truly is.

[GhostF1]

I think the Renault and Honda numbers are wrong. If the Honda was further away from Mercedes and Ferrari then how did Toro Rosso get that result in Bahrain. Don't give me low downforce or low drag crap because to do well at Bahrain requires good traction and downforce out of the slow corners.

I think the Honda numbers are being skewed by the amazing Red Bull RB14 chassis making the Renault look much better then it actually is. I believe that with the Honda engine the Red Bull would have achieved the same results if not better ones then they currently have. I think the STR13 chassis and it's drivers have not given Honda a true indication of where they are. I think they should put Max back in the Toro Rosso for a test session or a race for punishment just to see where the Honda truly is.

Hard to say. Honda have been open about their energy management being below par in the first races, and only now are they starting to get the hang of it. They have also openly admitted they are 4th, but only just, in the rankings.
The numbers in the media I don't believe, but I do think they are damn close in race trim. And I do believe Honda, in qualifying where the energy recovery is not a priority, is more powerful than the Renault.

[carisi2k]

Honda have been open about it but I don't think Renault's energy management is crash hot either. After 3 years they still can't get that new mgu-k unit reliable enough to introduce in Canada. Red Bull had battery issues at Bahrain and I think you will find that Renault have as much energy recover issues as Honda does.

[Talisman]

The Renault MGUK is only lighter than the one it’s supposed to replace, there is no performance advantage otherwise as a result of the strict power cap on MGUK deployment. I think you’re mixing up two things here, performance and reliability. Renaults energy recovery has traditionally been far superior to Honda’s. Whether that is still the case is debateable but conversely I think it’s difficult to argue that the Honda is significantly better either.

In terms of reliability then there are big question marks over the Renault with energy store issues and at least for the works team an MGUH problem. Is the Honda more reliable here? That’s a difficult one to answer as although Renault have had reliability problems they also deploy three times as many PUs as Honda do every race.

For me though Renault are the ones who have failed to impress this season. We were told that the myriad failures towards the end of last season were the result of their efforts switching to the 2018 unit. This would have been understandable if the 2018 unit was a big step forward but it hasn’t been, certainly not in terms of performance and probably not in terms of reliability. Also the PU is plagued by recurring problems. Alonso lost a turbo in testing and has had another replaced already in season while Ricciardo has also had a big turbo failure. SVD has lost two energy stores including in testing and I think MV has lost one too. I would have expected fixes to have been sorted out for these issues that arose in pre season testing.

[Benii6]

The Renault MGUK is only lighter than the one it’s supposed to replace, there is no performance advantage otherwise as a result of the strict power cap on MGUK deployment. I think you’re mixing up two things here, performance and reliability. Renaults energy recovery has traditionally been far superior to Honda’s. Whether that is still the case is debateable but conversely I think it’s difficult to argue that the Honda is significantly better either.

In terms of reliability then there are big question marks over the Renault with energy store issues and at least for the works team an MGUH problem. Is the Honda more reliable here? That’s a difficult one to answer as although Renault have had reliability problems they also deploy three times as many PUs as Honda do every race.

For me though Renault are the ones who have failed to impress this season. We were told that the myriad failures towards the end of last season were the result of their efforts switching to the 2018 unit. This would have been understandable if the 2018 unit was a big step forward but it hasn’t been, certainly not in terms of performance and probably not in terms of reliability. Also the PU is plagued by recurring problems. Alonso lost a turbo in testing and has had another replaced already in season while Ricciardo has also had a big turbo failure. SVD has lost two energy stores including in testing and I think MV has lost one too. I would have expected fixes to have been sorted out for these issues that arose in pre season testing.

Are you sure about SVD and MV? I don't think Max lost ES or anything else. And Stoff lost CE not ES.
It's not to say Renault's reliability is great, I just think their main/real problem is MGU-H/TC not ES or CE.

[Talisman]

You could well be right about MV and SVD, I’m not sure. Didn’t MV have a scareregarding some component failure though?

[carisi2k]

Reduced weight is a performance advantage.

[cyro_666]

Indeed, reduced weight can be a performance benefit, even an efficiency/horsepower benefit if the reduction comes from the unsprung weight.

[godlameroso]

What does any of this have to do with Honda? Who might I add, are on the cusp of surpassing Renault if they don't improve themselves. If Honda wins with Red Bull in 2019 it'll be the sweetest redemption for both teams.

[Talisman]

What does any of this have to do with Honda? Who might I add, are on the cusp of surpassing Renault if they don't improve themselves. If Honda wins with Red Bull in 2019 it'll be the sweetest redemption for both teams.

I might be mistaken but isn’t Renault the yardstick by which Honda will be measured, at least by Red Bull?

IMO whether the next Honda is better than the Renault won’t be the deciding factor. It is the speed and ability both companies demonstrate in improving the units and resolving unexpected issues.

I may be biased but I think Honda is the better option when this is considered.

That interpersonal relations between Red Bull and Renault are nearly openly hostile helps of course.

[etusch]

Would Redbull get the pole if there were H logo on the noose

[godlameroso]

Would Redbull get the pole if there were H logo on the noose

Here? Yeah definitely, they would have been no slower with the current Honda power unit. And I doubt Honda is measuring themselves against Renault, that's not the Honda way, they're aiming for Mercedes always. Why else would they stick with the split turbo concept if Renault is the target?

[godlameroso]

What does any of this have to do with Honda? Who might I add, are on the cusp of surpassing Renault if they don't improve themselves. If Honda wins with Red Bull in 2019 it'll be the sweetest redemption for both teams.

I might be mistaken but isn’t Renault the yardstick by which Honda will be measured, at least by Red Bull?

IMO whether the next Honda is better than the Renault won’t be the deciding factor. It is the speed and ability both companies demonstrate in improving the units and resolving unexpected issues.

I may be biased but I think Honda is the better option when this is considered.

That interpersonal relations between Red Bull and Renault are nearly openly hostile helps of course.

Honda has Mercedes as the yardstick, it's not trying to match Renault it's trying to beat Mercedes. Red Bull Honda in 2019 is a logical step.

[McMika98]

Easily, its no brainer. With last years Honda they would have got pole such was their dominance. Danny said he didnt fully commit as it wasnt needed.

TR was one of the quickest midfield car and Gasly brushed the wall on his final run else could have been higher.