2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Nonserviam85
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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techman wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:38 pm
Unless the car has serious balance issues, no additional ballast above the minimum weight is worth it. Reducing car weight is quite difficult too mid season, usually requiring a new chassis.
i agree but i bellive what eric said was mclaren was a very light car so they can add the ballast to get the min weight and also the car balance, whereas other he mention like force india are very heavy to start with, which mean they might have balance issues
It is not just the balance, please don't forget that ballast reduces the CoG which is the most important factor for mechanical grip.

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JonoNic
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Jacinto wrote:
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:01 pm
!Technical wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:07 pm
Despite all the issues, I'm quite positive that Alonso will be able to get a podium in the next race. Actually, he is in with a good chance to win. =)
New development? :wtf:
Alonso next race is 24 Hours of Le Mans
Toyota has bad luck at Le Mans. I won't even mention Alonso's luck... oops
Always find the gap then use it.

Ground Effect
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:07 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:49 pm
I'm still not going with aero, as much as you push the boardboards as a fix-all solution, yes, they need development (new BB parts coming for France, btw) - as does the rest of the aero, but it's not too bad in mid and high speed corners, it struggles at low speed, heavy traction circuits, where mechanical grip is far more of a factor, in both high and low downforce configs.

They have a fundamental kinematic/compliance and/or tyre conditioning issue imo.
It's not a fix all solution, it's an area that needs fixing to get the most from the chassis. I know they have really good braking stability and downforce in the mid high speed corners. What's lacking is diffuser instability at low speeds, so they have to compromise by running more wing which hurts top speed. When their diffuser is more stable at low speeds it lets them run less rear wing and the car will work better at low speeds. Whatever chassis or platform deficiency doesn't help, however I maintain, the aero is a big reason they struggle in low speed.

The good news is that it's not unfixable, and other than the bargeboards the car is extremely good in most every aspect. It won't make them faster than everyone but bargeboards along with the front wing are critical for sealing the diffuser.

Again I'm not claiming a cure all, just that developing this area is their best move because it can bring immediate gains, and it will stay relatively the same for next year.
That's quite interesting. In your estimation, how much do you think they can gain in tenths of a second from development on the BB areas in the short term?
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Ground Effect wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:44 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:07 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:49 pm
I'm still not going with aero, as much as you push the boardboards as a fix-all solution, yes, they need development (new BB parts coming for France, btw) - as does the rest of the aero, but it's not too bad in mid and high speed corners, it struggles at low speed, heavy traction circuits, where mechanical grip is far more of a factor, in both high and low downforce configs.

They have a fundamental kinematic/compliance and/or tyre conditioning issue imo.
It's not a fix all solution, it's an area that needs fixing to get the most from the chassis. I know they have really good braking stability and downforce in the mid high speed corners. What's lacking is diffuser instability at low speeds, so they have to compromise by running more wing which hurts top speed. When their diffuser is more stable at low speeds it lets them run less rear wing and the car will work better at low speeds. Whatever chassis or platform deficiency doesn't help, however I maintain, the aero is a big reason they struggle in low speed.

The good news is that it's not unfixable, and other than the bargeboards the car is extremely good in most every aspect. It won't make them faster than everyone but bargeboards along with the front wing are critical for sealing the diffuser.

Again I'm not claiming a cure all, just that developing this area is their best move because it can bring immediate gains, and it will stay relatively the same for next year.
That's quite interesting. In your estimation, how much do you think they can gain in tenths of a second from development on the BB areas in the short term?
At least .3 and as much as .7 just there alone.

They don't have to copy, just draw inspiration. Ferrari, and Red Bull have the right idea, and best execution on the grid, Renault and Mercedes made critical mistakes but their solutions are interesting.

The reason this area makes such a big difference is because it works in tandem with the front wing to seal the diffuser and floor. The rake to the diffuser isn't as important as the rake between the bargeboards and the front wing.

So if you make the bargeboard like a wing which helps the front wing, it makes that area much more powerful than using the bargeboards and side pod undercut to directly seal the floor with vortecies. The vortex integrity happens at too high a speed so this philosophy is useless in slow corners.

But if you turn this area into a wing you gain more low speed downforce, but loose a bit of mid to high speed downforce. But who cares it means more low speed grip and less drag at speed. True it takes some re-balancing of the car, but it's just setup related, nothing fundamental has to change.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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dren wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:55 pm
We'll know it was suspension issues when they get rid of that rear upper wishbone configuration and go to something more standard next year. They went with that configuration for aero gains, so perhaps they are still driven a bit too much by the aero department. It's what put the pressure on Honda to make the 'size zero' unit.
I have the same issue with that statement for the rear suspension as if it were for the PU.

If the aero guy asks the suspension guy "if you move that piece it would be better for Aero" and the suspension guy agrees. At some point in that conversation there was an expectation that the suspension piece works as well in the new location as it did in the old location or there is a bigger gain for a small loss. if the suspension guy doesn't make it work at the new location, then it's on him for saying he could make it work.

I can't believe that aero guys are telling PU manufactures and suspension people how to do their jobs. If they are and the suspension and PU people are listening ...it's still their fault for listening.

PhillipM
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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This is F1, aero guys have been telling suspension guys where it's going and like it or lump it for decades.

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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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But McLaren isn't some minnow team, they're still McLaren with some of the best facilities when it comes to building a race car. They most definitely have the ability to make it work, this is a fact. The car is good but it could be so much better, and I don't think it's a lost cause.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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It's not, they have issues, but they're bringing parts every race, the factory floor guys seem confident it'll be faster in France, even though it's a similar circuit.

McHonda
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:28 pm
It's not, they have issues, but they're bringing parts every race, the factory floor guys seem confident it'll be faster in France, even though it's a similar circuit.
Any word on any new suspension doing the rounds?

PhillipM
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Nothing, but then they might be able to solve their tyre/suspension issues without noticable new parts, larger/more sensitive pistons in the dampers, etc.
And they don't have to worry about not being able to switch the hypersofts on properly for qualifying either.

I only hear bits and pieces so I can't comment on anything bar there's some new BB parts.

McHonda
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:37 pm
Nothing, but then they might be able to solve their tyre/suspension issues without noticable new parts, larger/more sensitive pistons in the dampers, etc.
And they don't have to worry about not being able to switch the hypersofts on properly for qualifying either.

I only hear bits and pieces so I can't comment on anything bar there's some new BB parts.
Ok thanks anyway, much appreciated any little bit of info. 👍

Ground Effect
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:18 pm
But McLaren isn't some minnow team, they're still McLaren with some of the best facilities when it comes to building a race car. They most definitely have the ability to make it work, this is a fact. The car is good but it could be so much better, and I don't think it's a lost cause.
I know you gave your opinion regarding when you felt/anticipated we'll see a more competitive or representative Mclaren, based on a timeline. I can't remember when you said that would be, France or Silverstone?
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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France at the earliest as that would be enough time to get something slapped on the car. With an extra race or two to get it dialed in.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Ground Effect wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:10 pm
I know you gave your opinion regarding when you felt/anticipated we'll see a more competitive or representative Mclaren, based on a timeline. I can't remember when you said that would be, France or Silverstone?
Silverstone will show for sure how much of it is aero and how much is mechanical traction. I certainly don't expect a result like Canada, put it that way.

makecry
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:18 pm
Ground Effect wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:10 pm
I know you gave your opinion regarding when you felt/anticipated we'll see a more competitive or representative Mclaren, based on a timeline. I can't remember when you said that would be, France or Silverstone?
Silverstone will show for sure how much of it is aero and how much is mechanical traction. I certainly don't expect a result like Canada, put it that way.
I think Spain already showed us that. I expect them to be fairly competitive at Silverstone but then Renault was very fast last year one that track so yea.