Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
atanatizante
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by atanatizante » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:09 pm

I don`t know if that`s an old topic or the right thread in order to get some advised answer regarding what Nico Rosberg said about Ferrari have found in their ERS area but I`ll give it a go ...

This is the first part https://streamable.com/hg6gd

And here he elaborates further on: https://streamable.com/vh89e

From my understanding he speaks something about MGU-H, right? We knew that is allowed to have maximum 120kw/160hp for only 33 sec. and that`s 4MJ from which the only 2MJ could be provided from MGU-K. Nowhere said that they aren`t allowed to deploy 159HP for the rest of the time, isn`t it? Just to have the appropriate MGU-H in order to let them have that amount of power … so that`s it? Do they have a better “H”?
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:32 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:09 pm
I don`t know if that`s an old topic or the right thread in order to get some advised answer regarding what Nico Rosberg said about Ferrari have found in their ERS area but I`ll give it a go ...

This is the first part https://streamable.com/hg6gd

And here he elaborates further on: https://streamable.com/vh89e

From my understanding he speaks something about MGU-H, right? We knew that is allowed to have maximum 120kw/160hp for only 33 sec. and that`s 4MJ from which the only 2MJ could be provided from MGU-K. Nowhere said that they aren`t allowed to deploy 159HP for the rest of the time, isn`t it? Just to have the appropriate MGU-H in order to let them have that amount of power … so that`s it? Do they have a better “H”?
The H is recovering energy from the turbine, and the turbine is powered by the exhaust gases that come out of the engine. However the turbine can also be powered by the MGU-K directly, which means you can use crankshaft power to power the MGU-H indirectly. This is how you get 2MJ/lap from the K to the ES and whatever excess comes from the H, and it works in the other direction as well. You can send 4MJ from the battery to the MGU-K directly, but you can send unlimited energy from the battery, or some other energy source to the MGU-K indirectly, either through engine ancillaries, the engine itself, or the MGU-H.
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Thunder » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:10 am

Ok last try. There is a General Honda F1 Topic for everything non technical: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26921

Use that or i'll have to lock this Thread for some Time.
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wuzak
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by wuzak » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:26 am

atanatizante wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:09 pm
I don`t know if that`s an old topic or the right thread in order to get some advised answer regarding what Nico Rosberg said about Ferrari have found in their ERS area but I`ll give it a go ...

This is the first part https://streamable.com/hg6gd

And here he elaborates further on: https://streamable.com/vh89e

From my understanding he speaks something about MGU-H, right? We knew that is allowed to have maximum 120kw/160hp for only 33 sec. and that`s 4MJ from which the only 2MJ could be provided from MGU-K. Nowhere said that they aren`t allowed to deploy 159HP for the rest of the time, isn`t it? Just to have the appropriate MGU-H in order to let them have that amount of power … so that`s it? Do they have a better “H”?
If they have sufficient energy recovery, they can run 120kW all the time.

The 33s at 160hp comes from the maximum energy transfer from the ES to the MGUK of 4MJ (= 4,000kJ). That is,
4,000kJ/120kW = 33.33s.

If the power was reduced slightly to 159hp from 160hp, the time available wouldn't change much.

If you chose only to use half the power, you would get twice the time. So
4,000kJ/60kW = 66.67s.

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:11 pm

Looks like the current power units are going to stay beyond 2021, maybe some standardized parts. Particularly interesting that Honda wants to keep the MGU-H all of a sudden. That to me is very telling in a general sense.
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loner
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by loner » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:23 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:11 pm
Looks like the current power units are going to stay beyond 2021, maybe some standardized parts. Particularly interesting that Honda wants to keep the MGU-H all of a sudden. That to me is very telling in a general sense.
good news since i do want current regulations to continue and get explored more its a rabbit hole with lots of undiscovered energy yet.
"So if somebody would commit to come into F1 in the way that all four of us [Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Honda] have committed ourselves, go through the lows and highs, the expenses and investment that it needs, then let's discuss engine regulations.

"But if nobody's inside, it's an academic discussion."

Christian Horner also indicated that the lack of new entrants had become an issue. In addition Honda is keen to keep the MGU-H, and Red Bull is backing that position.
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:05 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:11 pm
Looks like the current power units are going to stay beyond 2021, maybe some standardized parts. Particularly interesting that Honda wants to keep the MGU-H all of a sudden. That to me is very telling in a general sense.
Lesser tech is not acceptable for F1 anymore I think. If they go back, they will be way behind in tech from other series.
That is good news for me.

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by roon » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:27 pm

loner wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:23 pm
good news since i do want current regulations to continue and get explored more its a rabbit hole with lots of undiscovered energy yet.
Actually, they may be hitting a wall with the hybrid tech. Some teams may already be deploying max K output throughout laps. Which means further power gains will be made only via the ICE. The choice would be to drop the H or rewrite the electrical drivetrain allowances.

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:11 pm
Looks like the current power units are going to stay beyond 2021, maybe some standardized parts. Particularly interesting that Honda wants to keep the MGU-H all of a sudden. That to me is very telling in a general sense.
They want to develop compounding and hybrid tech, and not go down the combustion rabbit hole any further.

etusch wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:05 pm
Lesser tech is not acceptable for F1 anymore I think. If they go back, they will be way behind in tech from other series.
They can keep developing combustion without an MGU-H. Which will enable lighter engines accomplishing the same task. Kinetic reclamation can remain and this is part of the 2021 formula proposal. Completing the same task with less weight, cost, and complexity, should also be considered 'tech.'

bosyber
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by bosyber » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:44 pm

They could always allow either also generating 'K' from the front wheels, and/or lift that Es limit ; in general, allowing more use of regeneration from whatever source.

Remove the H part and you increase fuel use a lot.

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by roon » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:06 pm

bosyber wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:44 pm
Remove the H part and you increase fuel use a lot.
Consider that they burn fuel to charge the ES via the H & K. These MGUs incentivize part-throttle & off-throttle fuel burning within the existing ruleset. I wager the current ICE fuel consumption can be maintained with an unassisted TC. Fuel use may actually decrease with removal of the H because development focus will shift back to combustion development, away from series-hybrid development. Braking-only K regen would also help.

loner
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by loner » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:40 pm

Honda technical director Toyoharu Tanabe said his company would "miss" the component, and F1's other engine manufacturers agreed they supported keeping the MGU-H when asked by Autosport.

Cowell, the managing director of Mercedes High Performance Powertrains, said it will remove "a lot of energy" from the engines.

He explained the MGU-H provides 60% of the electric energy used to power the other part of the energy recovery system, the MGU-K, and contributes 5% of the current engine's thermal efficiency.

"The MGU-H has been blamed for the lack of noise and for high complexity," said Cowell.

"It's been referred to as a miracle. There are four technology companies that have made it work.

"To make up the power difference we're going to have to increase the fuel flow rate, which is a backwards step.

"It's not progress. It feels like a backwards step when the development work has been done."

Cowell said engine manufacturers would now need to develop anti-lag systems for the turbocharged engines as the MGU-H is "the most marvellous anti-lag system because it gives you speed control".

He added: "We'll have to come up with various systems and devices and that will probably involve burning some fuel through the exhaust, which doesn't feel the most honourable thing to do as an engineer.

"But it's a balance between technology and entertainment and we've got to get that balance right."

Ferrari technical director Mattia Binotto said Cowell's examples were evidence of the MGU-H being a "fantastic, efficient component".
Renault's engine technical director Remi Taffin said all four manufacturers had outlined their desire to keep the MGU-H as part of an "initial proposal".

"We are trying to have good discussions to go forward for keeping developing this power unit in a different way," he said.

"We did a lot of work on the MGU-H, it's working, it's a very nice part. It's not something we will put on the shelf and forget.

"The MGU-H is not directly translatable but it's a high-speed motor, it's quite a unique technology, and we're not going to put that on the shelf."
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Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Revs84 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:44 pm

I know this is slightly off the current topic, but was wondering if Honda will benefit from the fuel/oil upgrades that ExxonMobil might be bringing soon.

We know that both Red Bull and Honda use it, and we've heard that Red Bull are currently down by around 12bhp if I'm not mistaken from the other Renault engines.

So the question here is, will Honda also benefit from the upgrade and how much additional power could such an upgrade bring? Could this possibly be more than even 12bhp and is something Red Bull and Honda are banking on? Especially in light of the fact that it seems that ExxonMobil are currently running behind their competitors in updates?

loner
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by loner » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:51 pm

roon wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:27 pm
loner wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:23 pm
good news since i do want current regulations to continue and get explored more its a rabbit hole with lots of undiscovered energy yet.
Actually, they may be hitting a wall with the hybrid tech. Some teams may already be deploying max K output throughout laps. Which means further power gains will be made only via the ICE. The choice would be to drop the H or rewrite the electrical drivetrain allowances.
Asked if manufacturers were now getting to the limit of the current regulations, Cowell replied: "I think that comes down to your belief and understanding of whether there is a limit.
"I personally don't believe there is a limit. I think you can always find gains.
"Every week I have the pleasure to sit in our performance and innovation meeting and listen to bright engineers come up with ways of getting a little bit more efficiency out of the various systems and then enjoying the competition in the factory to turn those ideas in proven experiments, and then prove that they are reliable enough.
"So, for all four [engine manufacturers], we will continue to develop and there is no such thing as a limit."
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roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by roon » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:12 pm

loner wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:40 pm
Honda technical director Toyoharu Tanabe said his company would "miss" the component, and F1's other engine manufacturers agreed they supported keeping the MGU-H when asked by Autosport.

Cowell, the managing director of Mercedes High Performance Powertrains, said it will remove "a lot of energy" from the engines.

He explained the MGU-H provides 60% of the electric energy used to power the other part of the energy recovery system, the MGU-K, and contributes 5% of the current engine's thermal efficiency.

"The MGU-H has been blamed for the lack of noise and for high complexity," said Cowell.

"It's been referred to as a miracle. There are four technology companies that have made it work.

"To make up the power difference we're going to have to increase the fuel flow rate, which is a backwards step.

"It's not progress. It feels like a backwards step when the development work has been done."

Cowell said engine manufacturers would now need to develop anti-lag systems for the turbocharged engines as the MGU-H is "the most marvellous anti-lag system because it gives you speed control".

He added: "We'll have to come up with various systems and devices and that will probably involve burning some fuel through the exhaust, which doesn't feel the most honourable thing to do as an engineer.

"But it's a balance between technology and entertainment and we've got to get that balance right."

Ferrari technical director Mattia Binotto said Cowell's examples were evidence of the MGU-H being a "fantastic, efficient component".
Renault's engine technical director Remi Taffin said all four manufacturers had outlined their desire to keep the MGU-H as part of an "initial proposal".

"We are trying to have good discussions to go forward for keeping developing this power unit in a different way," he said.

"We did a lot of work on the MGU-H, it's working, it's a very nice part. It's not something we will put on the shelf and forget.

"The MGU-H is not directly translatable but it's a high-speed motor, it's quite a unique technology, and we're not going to put that on the shelf."
Increasing the fuel flow rate does not necessarily mean that total fuel consumption will increase.

Use compressor controls and VGT for anti-lag instead of burning fuel in the exhaust.

loner wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:51 pm
"So, for all four [engine manufacturers], we will continue to develop and there is no such thing as a limit."
viewtopic.php?p=779238#p779238

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:33 pm

without the MGU-H they would surely use twin turbochargers - so reducing lag

no doubt Mercedes efficiency figures are for performance when not burning fuel to make electricity
burning fuel to make electricity is energy accumulation - but energy accumulation from fuel accumulation is of course banned
energy accumulation has the wonderful property of allowing energy to be used when most laptime-effective