Aero Trends

[Conceptual]

So far this year, we have seen the bridge wing copied, the drop plank on the sideshields, molded side shields, and now the shark fin.

In 2004, did anyone see that coming? I mean, they have evolved so far in the last 4 years that they dont even look like they competed in the same series.

I bet Bernie is happy however. The shark-fin adds ALOT of add space, as well as the sidepod shields. With taller rear wing endplates next year, as well as less steep wings, the cars are really turing into moving bilboards...

Anyone care to comment on wehre this is going from here?

Chris

[Ogami musashi]

Like tyres, F1 aeros have no relevance to competition. They're a pure product of the regulations.

The vortex generation is a relevant trend, but the places were you see those vortex generators and flips ups are all due to the regulations.

Just move rearward and higher the rear wing and you can already remove some of them without losing efficiency.

Next year, all of those will be banned and i think for long time.

The next trends will surely be in bodywork management both for drag and downforce.

[Conceptual]

Ogami, what do you think of that article where Honda said the 2009 regs produce 75% of todays downforce instead of the 50% target, coupled with the return of slicks? Will the grip actually INCREASE with the 30% increase of tyre surface?

Chris

[WhiteBlue]

In my view the most important trend will be the limiting of downforce and driving the focus in aero research towards achieving that downforce with less drag.

F1 cars need some downforce to be fast and compete on a high level. But they should not have more than that and the objective should be to reduce turbulence and drag for better fuel economy and easier overtaking. Cars with less downforce are also more exciting to watch.

The FIA agrees with the manufacturers that the aero research should be reduced in favor of other fields which are more likely to benefit road cars. I share this view.

[Scotracer]

Ogami, what do you think of that article where Honda said the 2009 regs produce 75% of todays downforce instead of the 50% target, coupled with the return of slicks? Will the grip actually INCREASE with the 30% increase of tyre surface?

Chris

I had read elsewhere that all the teams had managed to claw back up to 35% of that 50% so you may see cars with almost as much as 90% the downforce they had this year. Couple that with much more drivable tyres with more grip and we will see cars much faster than today. We may see cars lapping faster than 2005 and maybe even 2004 on certain circuits (low speed circuits).

The main question that remains in my head is how will drag levels be next year? If the cars produce less turbulent air, they surely have less drag (meaning speeds on par with the V10 days). But, I fear the turbulent air is only being relocated; with the higher rear-wing and much-lowered front wing I feel that the OWG has just moved the turbulent air-stream further up, vertically to miss the front wing of the car. One thing we do know is that front-wing frontal area is much increased but rear-wing frontal-area is reduced. Hmm.

[Conceptual]

I just can't wait to see them!

Any info on if bridge-wings, shark fins, cockpit wings are still going to be there? From all accounts, they are not downforce producing elements, so will they be allowed next year?

Chris

PS: Looking at the new McLaren engine cover, I had to wonder what would happen if they simply extended the shark-fin to the rear of the rear wing, and then mounted the rear wing right to the fin itself. If the cutout of the fin is in such a way that the top rear part would be further behind the bottom rear part, thus using the engine cover as a lever transferring the downforce of the rear wing to the gearbox....

Comments?

Chris

[Jersey Tom]

Slicks are not going to give as much grip as some people are imagining.. though it will be more noticeable on the slow speed circuits.

There's a maximum amount of grip tread rubber can give you. Wider will get you closer to that limit, but there's a point of diminishing returns. It's not linear.

For example.. I could take my sportscar and do some laps on my stock 225s and 245s.. but if I go up to 295s and 325s I'm not going to get 30% more grip. It will be an increase (all other things being equal) but it won't be enormous.

Steering response and wear will be much improved though, if Bridgestone don't change the compounds up too much.

[Scotracer]

Well the Bridge wing is definitely used for downforce but the shark fins are for stability purposes so we just don't know. They haven't released any of the regulations yet so we really have no idea how the cars will look. Hopefully Honda does run their 2009 car at Hockenheim but it appears that there's no 2009 tyres there so it all seems a little...

Slicks are not going to give as much grip as some people are imagining.. though it will be more noticeable on the slow speed circuits.

There's a maximum amount of grip tread rubber can give you. Wider will get you closer to that limit, but there's a point of diminishing returns. It's not linear.

For example.. I could take my sportscar and do some laps on my stock 225s and 245s.. but if I go up to 295s and 325s I'm not going to get 30% more grip. It will be an increase (all other things being equal) but it won't be enormous.

Steering response and wear will be much improved though, if Bridgestone don't change the compounds up too much.

You must remember though that with the grooved tyres, they have to use a harder compound of rubber to maintain structural integrity so they will have both an increased contact patch as well as a softer, grippier compound of rubber. They will make a significant difference (just look at the difference that was shown at the Barcelona test earlier in the year -- Massa using 2008 aero and 2009 tyres was almost 3 seconds faster than those using 2008 aero and 2008 tyres).

[Conceptual]

Well the Bridge wing is definitely used for downforce but the shark fins are for stability purposes so we just don't know. They haven't released any of the regulations yet so we really have no idea how the cars will look. Hopefully Honda does run their 2009 car at Hockenheim but it appears that there's no 2009 tyres there so it all seems a little...

Slicks are not going to give as much grip as some people are imagining.. though it will be more noticeable on the slow speed circuits.

There's a maximum amount of grip tread rubber can give you. Wider will get you closer to that limit, but there's a point of diminishing returns. It's not linear.

For example.. I could take my sportscar and do some laps on my stock 225s and 245s.. but if I go up to 295s and 325s I'm not going to get 30% more grip. It will be an increase (all other things being equal) but it won't be enormous.

Steering response and wear will be much improved though, if Bridgestone don't change the compounds up too much.

You must remember though that with the grooved tyres, they have to use a harder compound of rubber to maintain structural integrity so they will have both an increased contact patch as well as a softer, grippier compound of rubber. They will make a significant difference (just look at the difference that was shown at the Barcelona test earlier in the year -- Massa using 2008 aero and 2009 tyres was almost 3 seconds faster than those using 2008 aero and 2008 tyres).

Is it possible to use these numbers, and guesstimate at the 2009 spec time at 75% downforce? Or will the cornering speed loss not balance by straight line gain?

Chris

[Ogami musashi]

Can we stick to the subject? If we want to talk about regs there's a topic for it.

I say that because if you do a search there is ten topics or more that speak about regs, nothing is centralized and information is not easy to get, as a result the same questions keep on coming again and again.

We should restrict ourselves to the topics.

(i'm talking about the slicks and downforce claw).

So i invite you to speak about it in the "future regulations" topic, is it okay?


As for the topic, the trend, i think a more natural trend would be to develop aero efficiency by actually lowering the drag rather than increasing the downforce.

But in anyway we are into a regulated championship so there'll always be a bias.

I think it is a bit sad vortex generation is to be diminished because it is a powerful tool, it can really helps.

I think the most relevant aerodynamics on F1 cars are the front wings.

They really do a great job and their functions are really complex.

Because they are in the front i think it will always be necessary to have them developed, so i hope it will be like that for them or at least nose aerodynamics.

The two other trends really relevant to aerodynamics in general are aero elasticity and MHD.

The first one is already used to a great extent by teams, i wish it could be used more as it can provide not only a tool to decrease drag but also to make downforce generation more steady across the range of operation (especially in yaw).

[Conceptual]

I just can't wait to see them!

Any info on if bridge-wings, shark fins, cockpit wings are still going to be there? From all accounts, they are not downforce producing elements, so will they be allowed next year?

Chris

PS: Looking at the new McLaren engine cover, I had to wonder what would happen if they simply extended the shark-fin to the rear of the rear wing, and then mounted the rear wing right to the fin itself. If the cutout of the fin is in such a way that the top rear part would be further behind the bottom rear part, thus using the engine cover as a lever transferring the downforce of the rear wing to the gearbox....
Comments?

Chris

As was stated in the McLaren aero development thread, the MP4-10 is very similat to what I said here. I wish that I had known about that car before posting this!

Chris