KERS Dangers

[Giblet]

Well one BMW mechanic gets burned from simply touching a car.

Considering he wasn't standing in a puddle of water, he is a lucky man indeed.

I would imagine the batteries are running a 24 volt DC system (or more), and that is more then enough to kill someone.

What about a wet race, when the system is opened up to the elements in a crash, and the driver is being electrocuted as the car comes apart around him. I shudder at the image of Kubica in his crashed BMW last year at Canada. What if he was unconcious and also twiching from the shock?

I think in safety terms this unit needs to be treated like a fuel cell anjd contained accordingly. Containing fire and heat from a driver is done relatively easily and well, but electricity travels quite differently, again, especially in the wet.

Maybe no KERS on wet races? KERS is there to aid in overtaking, but the wet lets that happen anyways.

[Belatti]

Just for all forum members to get to know hazard potentials on electricity:

Shock effects

Psychological
The perception of electric shock can be different depending on the voltage, duration, current, path taken, frequency, etc. Current entering the hand has a threshold of perception of about 5 to 10 mA (milliampere) for DC and about 1 to 10 mA for AC at 60 Hz. Shock perception declines with increasing frequency, ultimately disappearing at frequencies above 15-20 kHz.

Burns
Heating due to resistance can cause extensive and deep burns. Voltage levels of (> 500 to 1000 V) shocks tend to cause internal burns due to the large energy (which is proportional to the duration multiplied by the square of the voltage) available from the source. Damage due to current is through tissue heating. In some cases 16 volts might be fatal to a human being when the electricity passes through organs such as the heart.

Ventricular fibrillation
A low-voltage (110 to 220 V), 50 or 60-Hz AC current through the chest for a fraction of a second may induce ventricular fibrillation at currents as low as 60 mA. With DC, 300 to 500 mA is required. If the current has a direct pathway to the heart (e.g., via a cardiac catheter or other kind of electrode), a much lower current of less than 1 mA, (AC or DC) can cause fibrillation. Fibrillations are usually lethal because all the heart muscle cells move independently. Above 200 mA, muscle contractions are so strong that the heart muscles cannot move at all.

Neurological effects
Current can cause interference with nervous control, especially over the heart and lungs. Repeated or severe electric shock which does not lead to death has been shown to cause neuropathy.

When the current path is through the head, it appears that, with sufficient current, loss of consciousness almost always occurs swiftly. (This is borne out by some limited self-experimentation by early designers of the electric chair and by research from the field of animal husbandry, where electric stunning has been extensively studied)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock

[jwatson]

Deathtrap in my opinion. It won't be long before a marshall or mechanic is killed if this is introduced.

[Henne]

That's why they are testing the systems now... The have to be ready for the 2009 season which gives us a few months before everything should be done.

I don't know many experiments that never went wrong at some point. That's how we learn. Sometimes its pure physics, sometimes its trial and error, sometimes both (which I assume happened here).


Give those technicians some slack, they are trying to understand the new KERS system, so yes, things will go wrong the first few times they test this.

[Ciro Pabón]

Ehem, sorry to interrupt: how in heaven do they know it was the fault of KERS? I'm with Henne here (welcome, Henne!).

Yes, I also read that it happened with the "KERS" car that BMW was testing, but they could have wired it incorrectly or it could be something else. I would bet on incorrect wiring, as it was a test.

BMW is "... currently investigating the incident."

By the way, this is the picture that appeared at http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/7/8139.html



At least his hair was not burned...

[MattF1]

Perhaps a small earthing strip could be used or would that be against the rules?

[modbaraban]

At least his hair was not burned...

Those KERS are clearly witchcraft, the Devil Box brought to destroy our beloved formula 1! It actually burned all his hair completely even before the photographers could click the shutter! That's how powerful the evil thing is.

[Giblet]

Regardless if this incident is from KERS or not, I do not know, but I am trying to discuss possible dangers of KERS in the future.

Another possible danger is lithium used to make batteries, that combusts when exposed to air.

[freedom_honda]

what about the acid in the battery??
would the acid cause any danger to the drive when having a big crash(eg. Kubica in Canada last year)?

[WhiteBlue]

High energy storage is dangerous in vehicles. It took F1 40 years to sort out the problems with fuel tanks. So I guess it would be fair to give them a bit of time to sort out the batteries and flywheels. The people in F1 are aware that motorsport is dangerous. We saw that in Timo's crash on Sunday. They should take all necessary precautions and get on with the job.

[Chaparral]

You know this technology is pretty new as its only been used in trucks and more industrial type circumstances in previous years- not in a high tech F1 arena - I suspect you may have some very real issues with it.
Im not sure of how the 'energy' is collected - stored - then dispersed - is it stored in like a bank of capacitors (not batteries) where incoming energy is stored (which can run into hundreds of amps - remember its the amps that will kill you not the voltage) then its fed back into the system by a 'push for power' button system. Capacitors store an enormous amount of electricity and as such can cause a huge amount of damage if there is a flaw and its 'grounds' with something - what happens in an accident with bits of the car flying off etc - where is the system carried on the car - I saw a shot today indicating BMW were carrying (batteries?) in the oversize side pods testing at Jerez - I would have thought it safer on board but where.

[Chaparral]

Im not the only one with doubts about this technology Toyota and Honda have the same reservations as per this report

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69408

I keep hearing the word batteries to store this regenerative power surplus but from my understanding of the electrical field its industrial capacitors for storing and releasing energy of this nature and hence my reservations

[Conceptual]

New technologies always have teething problems.

Maybe if the KERS systems were not regulated to be primitive by auto industry standards, these things could be avoided. I don't think that Toyota has had any lawsuits against them for the Prius electrocuting a driver.

Maybe BMW simply need to drive over teh pit box grounding straps before going into the garage? I mean, they are already in place for a similar reason (electric sparks), so why not use it as a precaution while testing these systems?

I don't know why this has happened, but I don't think that it will slow or stop KERS from entering F1 in 2009, as well it shouldn't.

This will all be forgotten when the systems are perfected, and the limits removed from their integration.

To make an omelete, you need to break a few eggs.

Unfortunately, these 2 isolated incidents were the first cracks.

Chris

[GrndLkNatv]

Well this is my first post and I have questions about KERS and the F1 car..

1. Since the car is made up of large amounts of resin encased carbon fiber is it not a good electrical conductor?
2. The spinning fly wheel on the KERS system sitting next the magnetic field surrounding the engine and spinning at 19k rpm, will it not itself generate electricity or static electricity?
3. Since the engine and the KERS in a formula one car are a structural member of the car, that is the engine is a load bearing member of the car, would not that allow for the electrical current stored in the KERS to be directly transfered to the carbon fiber body of the car?
4. A guy from NASA last night on TV said that a car is a capacitor traveling on insulators, is this not true?

I have been told I was a nut when I brough up these topics elsewhere. What are your responses and who here is the expert?

BTW, today Toyota announced that they will not have KERS ready for 2009...

[pitlaneimmigrant]

Conceptual, those 'eggs' you are talking about cracking are the guys in pitlane, and at the moment there are more than a few of them who aren't too enthused about the whole KERS idea.
Factor in cost, risk, reliability issues and the fact that simulations indicate that the recovery limits imposed mean that any performance gains will be marginal at best, and you'll begin to see it's not the great idea that Max thinks it is.
Yes, motorsport IS dangerous, but when you sign up you want to know what the risks are, if you're a front jack man, you know the driver could cock it up and knock you over, you don't expect to be blown off your feet pushing the car into the garage

Also, the voltages generated in the KERS system are NOT 24V, not by a long way.
Try 300-400V.

PitLaneImmigrant