Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

HPD wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 14:25
We need a translator :lol:
Your boy Turbo ran them away with "over policing" :lol:

Edit. Is a little poke at Turbo. We had a private convo on this. Nothing serious.

Anyway. After reading the quote what I do like is that these Honda guys also have great knowledge on chassis dynamics! It is not any normal person can pick up that the rear end was losing traction due to steering input and car stability! The fact that they could link it to acceleration problems on the following turn is pretty neat if you ask me. And the other key thing.. And this is very important.. Is that Torro Rosso listened to them!!! Crtical suggestions like these were probably dismissed as puerile rubbish by McLaren!
Last edited by PlatinumZealot on 26 Aug 2018, 01:56, edited 3 times in total.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

Snorked
Snorked
68
Joined: 16 Mar 2015, 21:00

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

I don't think it was posted before, but in Germany Honda upgraded the cooling system / radiators increasing the overall weight by 3kg.

https://members.f1-life.net/report/72548/

Roostfactor
Roostfactor
11
Joined: 26 Aug 2016, 04:50
Location: Texas

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Snorked wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 01:47
I don't think it was posted before, but in Germany Honda upgraded the cooling system / radiators increasing the overall weight by 3kg.

https://members.f1-life.net/report/72548/
That's interesting and a significant increase in weight. I wonder if it is for testing purposes in anticipation for future pu upgrades.

User avatar
lio007
316
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 23:03
Location: Austria

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Snorked wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 01:47
I don't think it was posted before, but in Germany Honda upgraded the cooling system / radiators increasing the overall weight by 3kg.

https://members.f1-life.net/report/72548/
Sadly the full article is behind the paywall, would be interesting to know some more details.

User avatar
HPD
198
Joined: 30 Jun 2016, 16:06

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

:)
THE POWER OF HIGH SPEED STRESSES

- “We have been learning from Azerbaijan. To be honest our cars were overtaken on the very long straight. One of the reasons was our energy management strategy, so we are relying a lot on the results of Azerbaijan to revise that.”

- “It’s a difficult question which is tougher! To be honest both have different characteristics, but the long straights mean you are flat out consistently and that leads to higher temperatures, not only in the combustion chamber but also in other parts of the drivetrain. In Monza it’s flat out and then stop, flat out and stop, and then flat out again. So it’s very difficult to manage from a reliability point of view.

- “For example, we use some of the motors under heavy duty conditions - such as high temperatures - and going flat out, stop, flat out means a very short time for the cooling phase. That means you get high temperatures, a little bit of cool down and then increase the temperature again. It’s very difficult.

- “In Spa, of course the long straight is very tough for the power unit but after that we have some more cool down time because there are shorter straights and longer corners. So the two tracks have different characteristics from a power unit point of view.”

- “As I’ve mentioned, the amount of time you spend flat out affects reliability. High temperatures mean a high chance of a knocking situation, when the air-fuel mix explodes in the combustion chamber and we have to ensure we can manage that at the end of the straight, as it can be harmful to the ICE.

- “So of course we prepare on the dyno for that situation, using what we learned on the long straight in Baku. Basically we can simulate running on any circuit on the dyno. If we want to check for cylinder pressure damage then we would just run the dyno flat out, like driving down a straight. But the main purpose is to run it as a circuit simulation, so if you were listening to the power unit it would sound like it’s doing a lap of one of those tracks.”

- “For electrical power - the ERS - of course we have some radiators and heat exchangers that are not only for cooling but also for power management. So sometimes we reduce the deployment of power or the harvesting of power, so it’s a similar situation between the internal combustion engine and the ERS.

- “Of course, making apertures in the bodywork bigger has an impact on the lap time, particularly at the high power circuits like Spa and Monza. So in development we learn how to deal with high temperature situations to try and avoid that.”
http://en.hondaracingf1.com/insights/th ... esses.html
「今回、特に新しいアイテムの投入というのはありません。PUの限界値を探って、信頼性とのバランスの上に、もっと使える部分を探ったり試したりしているところです。カナダで新バージョンのPUを投入して、それ以降トラックサイドでの煮詰めというのを進めてきました。エンジンの美味しいところをどこまで使えるかというような詰めですね。それが今回、このパワーサーキットに間に合ってきた形です。今回は(新たなアイテムは入れていないものの)パフォーマンスは進歩していると思います」と本橋は語る。
"There is no particular input of new items in particular this time, we are trying to explore and try more useful parts on the basis of the balance with reliability by searching for the PU limit value.It is a new version of PU in Canada After that, I have been promoting boiling down on the track side since then.It is just like being able to use the delicious parts of the engine to what extent.This is the form that is in time for this power circuit this time.This time I think that performance is improving (although new items are not included)". Said Honda F1 Vice Technical Director Tadashi Motohashi.
http://ja.hondaracingf1.com/insights/ro ... eview.html
Image

User avatar
aleks_ader
90
Joined: 28 Jul 2011, 08:40

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

I must say really good interview. Tadashi is the real deal . Step by step being analytical. That is the way towards performance. =D> Understand the innner workings of engine first and try to correlate that with testbeds. Material science and its durability must be nightmare from scientific point of view. How to measure it, how predict the wear etc.

They had perfect blend between Merc and Ferrari layout. RB should be pleased with that new challenge. I would say the pipings should be "easier". A lot less "clutter" at back of the ICE area. Tight coke bottle should be still RB mantra.

So from that point of view Honda and i presume RB&TR engineers really trying to maximize understandings how inner aero and its thermals effects performance of the car. RB will really indeed push the limits in thermal area just as did Mclaren in previous years. So HONDAS "update" halt is reasonable.

If i would be in Red Bull i would even consider 1 season as Ferrari in 2015. They increased the power on no matter what, just put as much cooling was needed. Open dam thing and try make good season with time to made iterative improvement in aero shrinkage... This year performance is nice. I believe is still not enough to win, but they have resources and the team is gained experience towards 2020 onwards to at least provide good challenge... Nice work Honda. =D>
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

roon
roon
412
Joined: 17 Dec 2016, 19:04

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

aleks_ader wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 18:51
They had perfect blend between Merc and Ferrari layout.
In what sense?

User avatar
aleks_ader
90
Joined: 28 Jul 2011, 08:40

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

roon wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 03:54
aleks_ader wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 18:51
They had perfect blend between Merc and Ferrari layout.
In what sense?
I m glad you ask. Is non conventional thinking. From conceptual layout they are almost the same as Merc. But from volumetric point of view they are much "bulkier" from Merc. I would say close to Ferrari layout. I must admit Ferrari did good job with intercooler, rear low turbo et. But still is a bit "rear" and "plenum" complicated. That is just my feeling. All that had pros and cons. But we could agree the main differentiator is fuel economy and energy flows trough all conditions...
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

Hino
Hino
64
Joined: 03 May 2017, 03:22
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

https://www.f1maximaal.nl/nieuws/max-ve ... -presteert
Honda puts everything for Red Bull

In Japan they put at least enough time and energy to improve the power source. 'I can tell you from very reliable sources that Honda is currently testing these engines at three locations in the world. They do that on one cylinder. They want to get the maximum out of that. In the run-up to next year, they consume more money than Renault can do in a whole year. I get hope from that, 'Doornbos said.

User avatar
godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

What I want to know is if they're working on fuel. Exxon Mobil/Esso isn't small potatoes it's every bit on the level of Shell. Both Honda and Red Bull are running the same fuel, I wonder if they're working on something on that end? Fuel kinetics are more important to power unit development than was anticipated it seems.
Saishū kōnā

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

It is relatively easy to design fuel formulations for the dyno since you dont have to abide by the FIA regulations there. In other words they don't need to wait on the exxon to develop new fuels in line with FIA regs to test the engine with more aggressive tuning. They can use substitutes.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

User avatar
godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
03 Sep 2018, 05:08
It is relatively easy to design fuel formulations for the dyno since you dont have to abide by the FIA regulations there. In other words they don't need to wait on the exxon to develop new fuels in line with FIA regs to test the engine with more aggressive tuning. They can use substitutes.
I was talking about using the facilities and computational power of these large companies to help model the combustion process. True, you don't need nanosecond time scale analysis of the combustion process, considering no device on the engine itself can or does work at that time scale. That doesn't mean however, that there is no benefit, because the chemical reactions do happen at those time scales. Often times temperature and pressure can alter the intermediate radical species. So by studying how these species form, you can design your combustion process to take advantage of some of these species. Of course you have to find out how they behave which is difficult because a lot of really energetic radicals are extremely short lived.

It takes plenty of research to identify and isolate these radicals, and even more research to stimulate or inhibit them in relation to the environment. It could be that a certain class of radical in the reaction chain helps curb detonation with little calorific penalty to the overall process. Research like this can only be done by large petrochems, F1 teams just don't have the resources.
Saishū kōnā

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Because of the tight F1 schedules involved, and seeing as the fuel developers are creating using chemical formulations more than physical properties (like say in metallurgy) I also agree that the computer modelling is very difficult if not impossible - not to mention that all the fuel developers would arrive at the same solutions if these models were computer based! - So I am going to hazard a guess and say these formulations are very trial and error. :?:
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

seezung
seezung
56
Joined: 05 Feb 2016, 14:01

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Gasly's FX Lap from Monza, turn the volume up :D
The sound when downshifting :o

https://streamable.com/7h2ws

User avatar
lio007
316
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 23:03
Location: Austria

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

seezung wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 08:23
Gasly's FX Lap from Monza, turn the volume up :D
The sound when downshifting :o

https://streamable.com/7h2ws
https://streamable.com/7h2ws
Honda must be doing something very different compared to the other PU-suppliers. When you listen to Gasly's onboard lap: there is no turbo whining at all. From the other PU's you can hear it very well during acceleration!
I can remember that the Renault hasnt had it as well, but I think since 2017, they feature this "sound" too.

What do you think, why the Honda-PU doesn't have this turbo-sound?
Last edited by lio007 on 04 Sep 2018, 10:46, edited 1 time in total.