2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:42 pm
timbo wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:16 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:01 pm


Watch the first half of 2009 or the 2011 Korean GP.
2009 Australian GP, maybe? And why Korean GP and not Indian GP from the same year? (Indian just came to mind first but when I googled to refresh the memory, it appeared I totally forgot four other Massa-Hamilton get-togethers)

To me, he is untouchable when things are right, but it's not like he is always "there".
He drove the Korean GP with a broken rear sway bar that's why.

Statistically,even before his time at Mercedes he was the most consistent driver. Hamilton's main problem in regards to people's perception is that his "off days" are held against a higher standard than the rest.
That 2009 season really has shown the fighting spirit Lewis has. That Mclaren was down on performance, but he pushed the car so much that he made it look somewhat good enough, but because he had to push so hard, it would make him vulnerable to mistakes for example Monaco and Monza 2009

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Vasconia
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Cannonballer wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:52 am
"For me, the gap was there - otherwise I wouldn't do it," Vettel regarding the incident with Verstappen.

Isn't the gap that he said he saw illusory because Verstappen is still ahead and therefore entitled to the racing line?
The gap was there but Verstappen loves to close the door even if the position is lost. As the FIA permits him to do it its cheap. You ruin two drivers race and still the podium is yours. #-o #-o #-o

Some people may say that Vettel took a risky move but it was a good overtake and he needed to do it. 3-4 positions were not enough for him. I think yesterday he drove pretty well but the race was lost on qualy.

Pretty easy race for Lewis, best car and no rivals.

Good point for Carlos, its a pity that Renault is going backwards.

marvin78
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Vettels move would have "worked" (not as in he would have passed) against any driver but 2. One of the two is Verstappen. If Verstappen stayed on the outside he possibly still would have managed to maintain the position. But Verstappen does not stay there. Never. Hamilton, Bottas or any other driver would have done what good racers do but some drivers think they have to be tough and tougher than necessary. That's what happend then. It was a normal racing incident with no one really to blame because Vettel maybe was a bit too optimistic but I think a crash would not have happend with other drivers (except for Magnussen).

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djos
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Hail22 wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:09 am
F2 far more entertaining than this snore fest.
I think you watched the 2017 race by accident, this year's was sensational right thru the field!
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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iotar__
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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marvin78 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:52 am
Vettels move would have "worked" (not as in he would have passed) against any driver but 2. One of the two is Verstappen. If Verstappen stayed on the outside he possibly still would have managed to maintain the position.
- Ohhhhhh, not this again :wink:
- No, it had zero (0) chances of success. Reasons: braking point, line (inside-outside), width, other car, speed through the corner - it would be against laws of physics to make it stick, that's not how this or any corner works.
- Stop painting it as some brave attempt instead of low skills fake overtake move. Whiting made is sound as if it was some late braking into slow chicane, 50/50 and then 1 mm of unfortunate contact instead of counterclockwise driving so to speak of sliding across the corner into the other car. Very early into the corner which also matters.
- Now it's time for smoke screens of "going for the ghap", my racehing sphirit BS. It's not that I run out of talent once again, I was rhisking and stuff :wink: .

Anyway, Suzuka was a good example of garbage two tier F1. Top 3 teams drivers can lose starts, cause collisions, spin, avoid penalties, have slowest race ever and end up top X while being sold as geniuses of pace and overtaking.

Wait, Toto The Clown Wolff has a solution to F1 problems - let's add third drivers!

TwanV
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Vasconia wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:10 am

The gap was there but Verstappen loves to close the door even if the position is lost. As the FIA permits him to do it its cheap. You ruin two drivers race and still the podium is yours. #-o #-o #-o
Sorry but really you can't just barge your way in at Spoon and expect people to yield. Get off line there, you're done. Vettel should have never tried with VES, or any other real contender. The way the midfield yields is OK, particularly if they have Ferrari engines, but don't misunderstand not-opening-the-door with closing-the-door please.

marvin78
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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I did not see it as you did. I know it's en vogue to bash against certain drivers (I really don't know why - these people are people, nothing more) but Verstappen would have made the same move as Vettel (my opinion not a fact) and the other one would have let space. And everyone would praise Verstappen for the move. I think that's the only difference here. Verstappen is one of the examples: he often does exactly this move, Vettel did and comes away with it, because other drivers think and get out of the way, before he kills them. Yes, Vettel was to optimistic and that was a mistake but that's not just him and it was not a big one here. There are other drivers who do the same in every race. They usually don't crash because the others can actually see the outcome.

I raced cars when I was young. I would have made the move, Vettel did. So maybe I'm just stupid but I know I am not ;)

marvin78
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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TwanV wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:25 am
Vasconia wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:10 am

The gap was there but Verstappen loves to close the door even if the position is lost. As the FIA permits him to do it its cheap. You ruin two drivers race and still the podium is yours. #-o #-o #-o
Sorry but really you can't just barge your way in at Spoon and expect people to yield.
Verstappen does such things in nearly every race.

TwanV
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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marvin78 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:28 am
TwanV wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:25 am
Vasconia wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:10 am

The gap was there but Verstappen loves to close the door even if the position is lost. As the FIA permits him to do it its cheap. You ruin two drivers race and still the podium is yours. #-o #-o #-o
Sorry but really you can't just barge your way in at Spoon and expect people to yield.
Verstappen does such things in nearly every race.
Sigh... yeah does every race happens at Suzuka? VES is not known for divebombing unless you really want it to be true.

I'll just edit: I really dislike these general statements, what's the point?
Last edited by TwanV on Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

marvin78
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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I wrote such things and not exactly the same. Please read properly.

And yes he is. But other drivers are aware of that. That Verstappen has accidents all over the place is not a coincidence. It's not about dive bombing every time but it is about lack of awareness. I think it's normal and humanlike. With him and with others like Vettel.
Last edited by marvin78 on Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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From what I can see Vettel did make an opportunistic move. Like marvin78 says, that can work if you are up against a driver minding his own race and who realizes he is outclassed anyway. Such a driver will leave a lot more room.

Watching the replay, Verstappen was hard but not overly so on squeezing Vettel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU

Basically he left Vettel enough room to be on track. But Vettel required more room to slow the car down. I think Verstappen did fail to realize that. Verstappen is entitled to his line because he did not take defensive action before the corner, thus is allowed to squeeze him but naturally leave enough space so not to push Vettel off the track. Verstappen did the minimum and nothing more. So Verstappen is morally fine to take that line, but he wasn't smart about it either. At that point the car of Vettel is more of a projectile heading for your car, and such a thing can easily cost your own car and race. Verstappen should have known this because his PU was clipping, so he should have known he was down on power and checked his mirrors to see the speed difference, and perhaps having taking a more defensive line approaching the corner, discouraging Vettel to plunch it down the inside. Or, take a wider line. With Vettel having to slown that much in a basically mid speed corner, and a straight following, I think Verstappen would have kept the place pure because of the acceleration.

Vettel on the other hand left himself completely at the mercy of Verstappen's choice, depending on Verstappen to voluntarily leave enough room to get the car to slown sufficiently. Verstappen is not the type of driver to let anybody by easily, and Vettel should have known that. That being said, I understand for doing that. To have been any meaningful in the WDC, he had to get rid of Verstappen as soon as possible and get to the Mercedes cars. Basically Vettel had to win and had to move up. So we should appreciate Vettel's approach. It just was played against the wrong type of driver.

Here are by the way some similar incidents but with important differences:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MjKBtJe4Fg
Vettel here takes the outside line (he could no do that with Verstappen because Verstappen was already on the outside). Because Vettel shot in front of Ricciardo before the hairpin, Vettel was allowed to dictate the line. He also was much more in control, able to control the space between him and Ricciardo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCsSQ1UctwY
Reversed situation, where Ricciardo dives on the inside of Vettel. Vettel saw Ricciardo was going to need (a lot) more room to navigate the corner, and opened up the steering wheel. Not because he was obliged to, but because if he didn't it could have ended his race. Admittingly, Ricciardo went in way hotter that Vettel did in Japan. Vettel would have navigated the corner in Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR3Ls5tcp5A
Similar incident to Vettel, but Verstappen locked up and carried way too much speed to navigate the corner properly. Vettel left more than enough space and probably did not expect, I wouldn't, an overtaking attempt from that far back.

So end conclusion: I think Vettel tried an opportunistic move, but not overly opportunistic as he would still have navigated the corner in a reasonable fashion. Given Verstappen was entitled to the racing line and also left just about a one car width room, but was not going to give anything more than that, Verstappen did nothing wrong in a technical sense. The collision was caused by Vettel requiring a bit more track and Verstappen not willing to give that. It ended up in a racing incident. I think that was the correct reasonable decision by the stewards.
#AeroFrodo

marvin78
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:33 am
From what I can see Vettel did make an opportunistic move. Like marvin78 says, that can work if you are up against a driver minding his own race and who realizes he is outclassed anyway. Such a driver will leave a lot more room.

Watching the replay, Verstappen was hard but not overly so on squeezing Vettel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU

Basically he left Vettel enough room to be on track. But Vettel required more room to slow the car down. I think Verstappen did fail to realize that. Verstappen is entitled to his line because he did not take defensive action before the corner, thus is allowed to squeeze him but naturally leave enough space so not to push Vettel off the track. Verstappen did the minimum and nothing more. So Verstappen is morally fine to take that line, but he wasn't smart about it either. At that point the car of Vettel is more of a projectile heading for your car, and such a thing can easily cost your own car and race. Verstappen should have known this because his PU was clipping, so he should have known he was down on power and checked his mirrors to see the speed difference, and perhaps having taking a more defensive line approaching the corner, discouraging Vettel to plunch it down the inside. Or, take a wider line. With Vettel having to slown that much in a basically mid speed corner, and a straight following, I think Verstappen would have kept the place pure because of the acceleration.

Vettel on the other hand left himself completely at the mercy of Verstappen's choice, depending on Verstappen to voluntarily leave enough room to get the car to slown sufficiently. Verstappen is not the type of driver to let anybody by easily, and Vettel should have known that. That being said, I understand for doing that. To have been any meaningful in the WDC, he had to get rid of Verstappen as soon as possible and get to the Mercedes cars. Basically Vettel had to win and had to move up. So we should appreciate Vettel's approach. It just was played against the wrong type of driver.

Here are by the way some similar incidents but with important differences:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MjKBtJe4Fg
Vettel here takes the outside line (he could no do that with Verstappen because Verstappen was already on the outside). Because Vettel shot in front of Ricciardo before the hairpin, Vettel was allowed to dictate the line. He also was much more in control, able to control the space between him and Ricciardo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCsSQ1UctwY
Reversed situation, where Ricciardo dives on the inside of Vettel. Vettel saw Ricciardo was going to need (a lot) more room to navigate the corner, and opened up the steering wheel. Not because he was obliged to, but because if he didn't it could have ended his race. Admittingly, Ricciardo went in way hotter that Vettel did in Japan. Vettel would have navigated the corner in Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR3Ls5tcp5A
Similar incident to Vettel, but Verstappen locked up and carried way too much speed to navigate the corner properly. Vettel left more than enough space and probably did not expect, I wouldn't, an overtaking attempt from that far back.

So end conclusion: I think Vettel tried an opportunistic move, but not overly opportunistic as he would still have navigated the corner in a reasonable fashion. Given Verstappen was entitled to the racing line and also left just about a one car width room, but was not going to give anything more than that, Verstappen did nothing wrong in a technical sense. The collision was caused by Vettel requiring a bit more track and Verstappen not willing to give that. It ended up in a racing incident. I think that was the correct reasonable decision by the stewards.
That's it.

timbo
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:33 am
Basically he left Vettel enough room to be on track. But Vettel required more room to slow the car down. I think Verstappen did fail to realize that. Verstappen is entitled to his line because he did not take defensive action before the corner, thus is allowed to squeeze him but naturally leave enough space so not to push Vettel off the track. Verstappen did the minimum and nothing more.
I agree with the most of the analysis, but disagree here.
Here is the screen capture
Image
You can see, Vettel is already on the apex, however it is an early apex as he had to break on the inside. Verstappen as entering corner on a normal trajectory. Vettel is already more that half a car length in. However, at this point Vettel's right wheel is already inside the track of Verstappen's left wheel. So there's barely enough room for a car if it was going on a straight line, but the distance at this moment is actually closing. Next moment they touch, you can see the smoke from the left front wheel of Verstappen.
Image

Thus I don't think this counts as enough room.
OTOH it was a type of overtake where it all depends on the defending driver and thus it was opportunistic by Vettel.

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Phil
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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I think it being opportunistic is demonstrated quite easily in the fact that Vettel never quite got alongside (as in side-by-side, fronts against fronts) Max into spoon. For it to work, you'd need a driver who having seen Vettel dart up the inside would back out. Had Vettel gotten up alongside before the turn in point, the dynamics of the maneuver would have changed completely.

EDIT: Having just watched the replay again, I am also quite doubtful Vettel would have been able to make the corner anyway. He was way too fast at a very tight entry into Spoon. A collision was inevitable.

I can't completely blame Vettel for trying, but it was sort of desperate. Every overtake presents a risk and some risks are just not worth the gamble, especially against certain drivers. Having said that, I don't like Max's defense antics (though this paragraph now has nothing to do with the Spoon corner incident). IMO he often goes beyond the rules to defend his positions. Luckily, he gets away with most of them, because the net-loss isn't big. He's in to win races, not championships. The difference between hero and zero is negligible. When he gets into the position of being a WDC contender and fighting for positions, it will come down to the battle he chooses and this is where I see him failing ultimately. On the other hand, he is laying some fantastic ground work. At this rate, no one will dare to battle with him on track out of fear for a collision.
Last edited by Phil on Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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TwanV wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:25 am
Vasconia wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:10 am

The gap was there but Verstappen loves to close the door even if the position is lost. As the FIA permits him to do it its cheap. You ruin two drivers race and still the podium is yours. #-o #-o #-o
Sorry but really you can't just barge your way in at Spoon and expect people to yield. Get off line there, you're done. Vettel should have never tried with VES, or any other real contender. The way the midfield yields is OK, particularly if they have Ferrari engines, but don't misunderstand not-opening-the-door with closing-the-door please.
Maybe Vettel was too comfortable that he thought everyone would yield like a Ferrari powered car :lol:
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