timbo wrote: I think the key is ECU, and knowledge of what it can do. That's where McLaren strength may be.
You'll find that changing maps is not a new or unique part of this ECU. The ECU manufacturers have been doing this for years and the teams switching maps with rotary dials on the steering wheel.
Although the teams have been switching maps for years, this method has only become viable since the control ECU was introduced.
McLaren's strength is down to their interpretation and application of the rules - that is all.
zac510 wrote:You'll find that changing maps is not a new or unique part of this ECU. The ECU manufacturers have been doing this for years and the teams switching maps with rotary dials on the steering wheel.
I know! However the idea of engine maps usage in conjunction with gear changes is new.
Although the teams have been switching maps for years, this method has only become viable since the control ECU was introduced.
McLaren's strength is down to their interpretation and application of the rules - that is all.
Agree 100%, although I think that their knowledge of ins and outs of the system that they actually designed sertainly helps them as well. However, some other team may probably come with some "out-of-the-box" interpretation of how ECU works. Like a "hackintosh" or something, maybe we'll see that some day.
As I have said on the other threat about TC I'm of ther opinion that the FIA should ban this application after the season. They have the "New technology" clause which can be evoked for the purpose. This paddle thing only brings a form of TC back that isn't wanted by the fans and the governing body. Removal after the season would be appropriate in order of not interferring with this years championship.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
I honestly dont see why people are so up in arms about this paddle system, Ferrari do almost exactly the same thing, as do Reanult, BMW, Honda, Toyota, RBR, STR, FIF1 & Williams (and even Super Aguri lol) except they all use a dial on the steering wheel to change engine maps whereas Mclaren have chosen to use paddles. Initially I thought I'd completly misunderstood the idea and that it wasn't simply a "paddle-switch-insted-of-a-button-or-dial-switch" but reading this thread its clear that in fact that is the case.
Whats the big deal? Its not a form of TC, it is there to improve the driveability of the car leaving corners in various gears (and at the start), hence it is used (and has been used for years) by all the teams on the grid, thus not only is it completely legal but it is also not against the spirit of the rules either (seeing as the "dials-on-the-steering-wheel" version of this has been used for years by all teams without complaint from eachother). If it really was an atempt to reproduce a form of TC after the Ban you can bet your last pound/dollar/euro (etc. lol) that the other teams would be making a right noise about it.
But all's quiet on the western front so far.
Personally I see it as an ingenius idea, in that it is brilliant in its simplicity. Schumi was brilliant to watch on the onboard shots in his Ferrari, sometimes it was like he couldn't sit still (getting bored on his way to another dominating drive maybe? LOL!) because he was almost continually playing and fiddling with brake bias, TC settings, engine maps, engine braking setiings the whole lot. I bet he'd have appriciated a system like this. (Or maybe it would have taken away something to preoccupy himself with while out in front lol!)
I don't think it should be banned, cause I dont think they are getting an unfair advnatage, somebodty already said Renault were running this in 2006, and I wouldn't be suprised if somebody else is trialing the idea in their car, but if it were banned (say the FIA decided to implement a rule saying that they should have only one engine map) I dont think it would really change the "pecking order" so to speak, Ferrari, Mclaren & BMW would still be the top 3, and Honda will still be wondering what on god green earth (no pun intended) is going wrong with their car.
Silence is golden when you don't know a good answer.
Spencifer_Murphy wrote:Personally I see it as an ingenius idea, in that it is brilliant in its simplicity. Schumi was brilliant to watch on the onboard shots in his Ferrari, sometimes it was like he couldn't sit still (getting bored on his way to another dominating drive maybe? LOL!) because he was almost continually playing and fiddling with brake bias, TC settings, engine maps, engine braking setiings the whole lot. I bet he'd have appriciated a system like this. (Or maybe it would have taken away something to preoccupy himself with while out in front lol!)
Schumi once went off because he was bored and he started playing with the dials and knobs on the wheel (this happened on the Brickyard... Don't remember which year)
He went off in the first corner, later said in the press conference that he lost his focus because he was playing around with the settings =D>
As far as I could remember, Massa and Schumi do this all the time. not by tinkering with the dial on their steering wheels though, but by a "lever?" for brake balancing I guess.
Ferrari lost pace which is why renault and BMW beat them at hock'ring and macca nailed the setups for lewis..
Speaking of setups, do the 2 Ferrari drivers setup their own cars? I think Lewis is setting up his car to his liking now. He is much more confident in races than Heikki. I dunno. Just a wild guess But he is still hard on the tyres. If Massa spun at least 5 times in British gp, count how many times Lewis locks up his tyres during a gp weekend hehehe
Real traction control has sensors at the wheels to detect spin.
I doubt there are any wheel spin sensors connected to the ECU.
So it is up to the driver alone to know when the wheels are kicking out. I don't see anything wrong with just making things easier by using paddle shifts.
n smikle wrote:Real traction control has sensors at the wheels to detect spin.
I doubt there are any wheel spin sensors connected to the ECU.
There are other ways of doing it!
n smikle wrote:
So it is up to the driver alone to know when the wheels are kicking out. I don't see anything wrong with just making things easier by using paddle shifts.
But you are right here, thus this should remain legal
McMacca wrote:I'm sure you mean 'make it sound legal' ? anyway does anyone have the exact wording of this rule?
And I have to agree with some of the other posts here, it looks like the extra paddles have been arround for a while, and they probably weren't the silver bullet that made LH like greased lightning in Germany. I'm not sure that it was the new fuel / lube combo either.
I wonder, McLaren's resurgence over the Silverstone/Hockenheim weekend's was dramatic even if only one car was demonstrating the sudden infusion of pace. Hamilton's pace through the corners reminded me of the speed and poise of Renault's mass damper car of 2006 seemingly oblivious as it rode the kerbs.
Were the Ferrari's looking tired because they were being overdriven in a futile attempt to match Hamilton or was something else giving the MP4-23 wings.
With only 15 seconds separating Hamilton to Raikkonen in 6th who knows how much greater the gap would be without the SC. Aero improvements at this stage of the season are hardly likely to provide that scale of improvement or indeed tightly regulated fuel and lubricants, so is it down to the possible variable torque (linked by the obligatory separate switch, to meet the technical requirements for torque control) which is seemingly emulating 'traction control' out of corners that's responsible.
The question is, is it legal, if so who else has or is going to introduce the system on their car and how soon?
While this could be the innovation to win both championships, might it be banned as coincidentally the Renault mass damper was at Hockenheim two years previously?
I think it was plain that LH had a vastly superior car in germany, I mean we have witnessed may examples of inferior cars holding up faster cars for lap after lap, but the way he dispatched Massa without breaking sweat =D> Begs the question though, why?
I'm sure the reds will be better in hungary, I hope they are too, I'd hate for the competitive edge to go from this years chase. Maybe the shark fin will help them.
Since this torque adjustment system has been on the car since the start of the season I am inclined to believe McLaren's dominance of late is not down to any one thing but the total package of car, driver, and team.
"Like painters, we racing drivers have an artistic inclination and are individualists. Our task is to have a free head, come to the race and do more than normal people can manage." - Niki Lauda
[img]http://lord_k.home.comcast.net/Jochen-1.gif[/img]
Did anyone watch the Ferrari's today? It looks like they have perhaps SIX controls aside from the clutch, at least 3 on the right hand. There seems to be a trigger that is slightly inset and up from the normal grip, the normal paddle of course, and I believe a button or some other slightly different technique than the McLaren two-upper-paddle system. It looked like Massa was normally using two fingers, but occasionally using this upper trigger as well.
I also noticed that they did not move the quick-shift brake bias; both drivers were still using it on the right-hand side at about 3 points on track. I don't believe I'm seeing the McLaren drivers ever dropping their hands, although I know they have some form of quick bias adjustment, or did last year.
BMW is clearly using a McLaren-like system as Kubica was very deliberate with his index and middle fingers.
I also noticed that they did not move the quick-shift brake bias; both drivers were still using it on the right-hand side at about 3 points on track. I don't believe I'm seeing the McLaren drivers ever dropping their hands, although I know they have some form of quick bias adjustment, or did last year.
All I know is that the brake bias, by rule, must be a mechanical, not electrical, linkage. That's why we see the Ferrari drivers reaching down and to the right. Again, by rule, the McLaren is the same way, though I think their linkage is on the left-hand side. I think I've seen their drivers use their left hands to adjust the brakes instead of using the paddles...Of course, I could be wrong--just saying what I think is all--you may know something I don't!
=D>
But he is still hard on the tyres. If Massa spun at least 5 times in British gp, count how many times Lewis locks up his tyres during a gp weekend hehehe
