2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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GrandAxe
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Wynters wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:15 pm
GrandAxe wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:58 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:54 pm
So what happens when the car on the outside doesnt give the car on the inside enough room ?
That's a whole different ball game to the attacking driver carrying too much speed. Two very separate things.
In this case, it's very easy to see that Max did not give Vettel a car's width. Vettel was already off track, even with their wheels were interlocked.
GrandAxe wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:38 pm
The way Vettel could have performed the overtake correctly would have been to have his front wheel at least level to Max's rear wheel before corner entry, instead of diving in from so far behind.
Vettel already has his front wing alongside as they are passing the last braking board. I don't see how you can call this a 'dive bomb' and not invalidate every pass made involving taking the inside line into a corner.

It's worth noting that even Verstappen doesn't call it a 'Dive bomb', instead he asks what Vettel was thinking trying to overtake there. Also, despite the initial contact coming from Vettel's right front moving into Verstappen's left front, it's a light contact. It's not until Verstappen's left rear moves into, and heavily hits, Vettel's right front that there is heavy contact. This indicates that Verstappen was travelling significantly faster than Vettel at that point. If you are worried about 'going too fast to make the corner' then, by the time of the second impact, Verstappen is the one most at risk of that. Personally, I think it's obvious both would've made the corner comfortably if there had been no impact.
Physics (laws of motion and conservation of momentum) says that Vettel most definitely wouldn't have made the corner had Max not been there.

The momentum Vettel's car transferred to Max's shunted him right off the track in a direction at right angles to where he was originally headed, therefore, it is safe to conclude that Vettel himself would have ended up there had Max managed to evade the crash. Action and reaction are equal and opposite.

It was a dive.

You might have missed the interview on the day, but Max also states that Vettel "dived" at the end of this video:

Last edited by GrandAxe on Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wynters
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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ThumbsUp wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:55 pm
Well pretty obvious that he brakes at the moment he know's he's gonna crash.. thats why he was barely traveling faster as you say.
So we agree he could make the corner? Because he's clearly able to follow the kerb around and we agree that he's travelling at almost the same speed as Verstappen at the point of impact.
ThumbsUp wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:55 pm

This is a big if, but if he had the space and no collission he would have had way to much speed to make the corner properly.
This contradicts what you've just said. Unless you also think Verstappen was carrying "Way too much speed to make the corner properly"?
ThumbsUp wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:55 pm
And it wasn't a light touch! He hits the front left of Max's car and destroyed the floor and then hits the left rear of Max's car, which makes Max's car jump.
There's a puff of smoke from the first contact (either tyre face to tyre face or, more likely, Vettel's front tyre hitting into Max's front tyre due to the slight speed differential). Neither car jumps. The floor is demonstrably not destroyed as Max is able to keep up a high pace throughout the grand prix (compare to the damage he inflicts on Kimi that leaves him limping around). The jump comes when Max slams his rear tyre into Vettel's front (at a much higher speed differential than the first impact) and that's also what causes the spin.

Watch the video. In slow motion. If you genuinely don't see that:-
A) Vettel is more than halfway alongside Max by the time they reach the red-and-white kerb,
B) Vettel holds his line and Max moves closer and closer to him until they touch,
C) By the time their wheels are interlocked they are travelling at almost identical speeds and
D) The second impact (also visible at 01:39 to 01:42) is much stronger than the first.

Then I think we just need to agree to differ.

Wynters
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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GrandAxe wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:18 pm
Physics (laws of motion and conservation of momentum) says that Vettel most definitely wouldn't have made the corner had Max not been there.
At the point of initial contact, he's travelling at almost exactly the same speed as Max and had, up until that moment, been able to smoothly follow the tighter line he was following. Also, last I checked the laws of physics allow for braking as well (even assuming he needed to brake). I'm happy for you to point out the bit of physics that states that cars can't brake though. It's probably pretty important so we should get the news out there before there's a pile up!
GrandAxe wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:18 pm
The momentum Vettel's car transferred to Max's shunted him right off the track in a direction at right angles to where he was originally headed, therefore, it is safe to conclude that Vettel himself would have ended up there had Max managed to evade the crash. Action and reaction are equal and opposite.
You realise there are two impacts? The first caused by Vettel travelling slightly faster with interlocked wheels and the second, far more serious, caused by Max travelling significantly faster with interlocked wheels? I'm not even going to dignify with a response the claim that Max left the track at right angles to his previous direction of travel.
GrandAxe wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:18 pm
You might have missed the interview on the day, but Max also states that Vettel "dived" at the end of this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU
I'm sure both drivers had their versions of events at the end of the day. I'm generally more interested in the immediate aftermath before they've had an hour to think about how they want to present it. Plus, sometimes drivers aren't entirely unbiased. E.g. "I left Valteri loads of room" and "It's Kimi's fault. Once I'd failed to take the corner he should've stopped and waited for me to rejoin in front of him." This applies to every driver.

Wynters
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Actually, this is bonkers!

How did we go from 'It was a stupid place for Vettel to try and overtake but Max could've left him more room...racing incident seems fair." to 'it's always the sole responsibility of the following driver, the laws of physics say it's impossible to slow down and Max was ejected sideways from the track at 100 kph+'?

This is worse than "Vettel forgot to steer" in Baku.

You guys are all correct, I'm clearly wrong. I have no idea what came over me. Vettel clearly and deliberately dive bombed poor, blind little Max from as far back as the pit lane and had no intention of even making the turn. Frankly, he was lucky Max was there to stop him otherwise he would've EXPLODED as he flew off the track at 'Great speed', completely unable to slow down due to the laws of physics. All hail Max, the flawless driver who is never at fault!

Have. Fun.

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Phil
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Wynters wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:08 pm
I'm not putting sole responsibility on Verstappen, you are moving the goal posts.
I wasn't. You asked a question how an overtake could happen, if putting 'enough' of your car alongside someone elses isn't enough. I answered it, by highlighting the difference between what a car behind can do and how little the car in front sees.

The way Verstappen moved over shows quite clearly that he was simply taking his normal racing line into the corner. Were he attempting to defend that position, his movement would have been different, perhaps more distinct and he might have closed the inside sooner. Everything Verstappen said in the immediate aftermath after the incident suggests he was 'surprised' Vettel even attempted a pass into that corner. On the other hand, Vettel himself suggested he tried it there, because he needed to do something unpredictable, thus he saved some of his electric boost for the run up into Spoon.

All of this suggests that it was a move "out of the ordinary", so there's a legitimate claim to be made Verstappen wasn't expecting him when he moved over. Yes, racing drivers are expected to have a fair idea what is happening around them, but you can't entirely blame them when another driver attempts a pass in a part of the track where a successful overtake (especially between two similar paced cars) is very very unlikely.

And as I already replied to you; the 'not crowding other cars' off the track and leaving a car width of space especially applies to maneuvers taking place on straights. Corners are more complicated, as explained earlier when you commit to a certain speed and trajectory, simply lifting is sometimes not an option. Momentum still caries you out.

PS: I don't even like Max nor do I think his defensive antics are acceptable, but in this particular instance, I can't really blame him for the ambitious overtake Seb deemed doable.
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GrandAxe
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Wynters wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:23 pm
GrandAxe wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:18 pm
Physics (laws of motion and conservation of momentum) says that Vettel most definitely wouldn't have made the corner had Max not been there.
At the point of initial contact, he's travelling at almost exactly the same speed as Max and had, up until that moment, been able to smoothly follow the tighter line he was following. Also, last I checked the laws of physics allow for braking as well (even assuming he needed to brake). I'm happy for you to point out the bit of physics that states that cars can't brake though. It's probably pretty important so we should get the news out there before there's a pile up!
GrandAxe wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:18 pm
The momentum Vettel's car transferred to Max's shunted him right off the track in a direction at right angles to where he was originally headed, therefore, it is safe to conclude that Vettel himself would have ended up there had Max managed to evade the crash. Action and reaction are equal and opposite.
You realise there are two impacts? The first caused by Vettel travelling slightly faster with interlocked wheels and the second, far more serious, caused by Max travelling significantly faster with interlocked wheels?
GrandAxe wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:18 pm
You might have missed the interview on the day, but Max also states that Vettel "dived" at the end of this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU
I'm sure both drivers had their versions of events at the end of the day. I'm generally more interested in the immediate aftermath before they've had an hour to think about how they want to present it. Plus, sometimes drivers aren't entirely unbiased. E.g. "I left Valteri loads of room" and "It's Kimi's fault. Once I'd failed to take the corner he should've stopped and waited for me to rejoin in front of him." This applies to every driver.
I'm not interested in interpreting drivers psychology, to be honest, because that would simply lead down an unending warren. The issue was if Max described it as a dive (which you said he didn't) - he did.

Concerning the impact, Vettel ran into Max's front tyre with sufficient velocity to propel him off the track and score a second hit with his rear wheel on the way off track.
The clearest way to explain the crash is by resorting to "action and reaction are equal and opposite", with that, it is easy to see that due to the impact Vettel would have lost speed while Max would have gained speed, leading to the interlocked tyres.

If Max had braked, the impact would have been worse, because he would only have increased the closing speed between both cars (again physics :mrgreen: ) so out goes your punt on Max braking.

Lastly, how can a car travelling at the same speed as the one ahead manage to crash into it? That's just not possible.

ThumbsUp
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Wynters wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:19 pm
ThumbsUp wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:55 pm
Well pretty obvious that he brakes at the moment he know's he's gonna crash.. thats why he was barely traveling faster as you say.
So we agree he could make the corner? Because he's clearly able to follow the kerb around and we agree that he's travelling at almost the same speed as Verstappen at the point of impact.
ThumbsUp wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:55 pm

This is a big if, but if he had the space and no collission he would have had way to much speed to make the corner properly.
This contradicts what you've just said. Unless you also think Verstappen was carrying "Way too much speed to make the corner properly"?
ThumbsUp wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:55 pm
And it wasn't a light touch! He hits the front left of Max's car and destroyed the floor and then hits the left rear of Max's car, which makes Max's car jump.
There's a puff of smoke from the first contact (either tyre face to tyre face or, more likely, Vettel's front tyre hitting into Max's front tyre due to the slight speed differential). Neither car jumps. The floor is demonstrably not destroyed as Max is able to keep up a high pace throughout the grand prix (compare to the damage he inflicts on Kimi that leaves him limping around). The jump comes when Max slams his rear tyre into Vettel's front (at a much higher speed differential than the first impact) and that's also what causes the spin.

Watch the video. In slow motion. If you genuinely don't see that:-
A) Vettel is more than halfway alongside Max by the time they reach the red-and-white kerb,
B) Vettel holds his line and Max moves closer and closer to him until they touch,
C) By the time their wheels are interlocked they are travelling at almost identical speeds and
D) The second impact (also visible at 01:39 to 01:42) is much stronger than the first.

Then I think we just need to agree to differ.
A) Yes he’s alongside because he dived into that gap that was about to close. Because Vettel took to much speed in the corner.

B) Max is on the racing line. And takes the corner as everybody else.

C) They travel at identical speed because they collide, that happens when wheels lock into each other.

D) second impact makes Max’s car jump

- I agree that Vettel could make the corner if Vettel went 10 to 20 cm to the left or went round the outside. I get why he chooses the inside line because of when he dived in there was more space.

- I don’t agree on traveling the same speed before the collision. As Vettel dived in he was carrying way to much speed.

- When a big chunk of the floor is flying around imo is destroying the floor. What happens with Kimi is a other discussion.

Maybe he could put light pressure on Bottas because he was on Mediums and Max was on Softs.

As I said before I’m fine with it that it is a racing incident. We do have to remember that they don’t race in slomotion. And that they make decisions in split seconds. It was a divebomb that went wrong. Max could’ve maybe give him 5 to 10 cm more on the left. Vettel could do so much more to avoid it.

And please don’t take it personal we are sharing our visions and opinions

LM10
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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GrandAxe wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:46 pm
The clearest way to explain the crash is by resorting to "action and reaction are equal and opposite", with that, it is easy to see that due to the impact Vettel would have lost speed while Max would have gained speed, leading to the interlocked tyres.
You can’t be serious about looking at it this way, can you?


GrandAxe wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:46 pm
If Max had braked, the impact would have been worse, because he would only have increased the closing speed between both cars (again physics :mrgreen: ) so out goes your punt on Max not braking.
What Wynters meant was that Vettel could have braked if he had realized that he was not going to make the turn, not Max.


GrandAxe wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:46 pm
Lastly, how can a car travelling at the same speed as the one ahead manage to crash into it? That's just not possible.
The car on the inside has less to travel.

GrandAxe
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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The only way to resolve the reason why Max ended up where he did without ambiguity is physics. When you push something in a particular direction, it tends to end up further down the line in somewhat that direction.

Also, rotational velocity (not linear velocity) makes sense when talking about speeds between two cars travelling around a corner and crashing. Indeed, if you claim that Vettel on the inside had almost or exactly the same linear velocity as Max on the outside did, then you'll be negating your entire argument that Vettel was travelling at similar speed to Max.

Laserguru
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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I stumbled along the recordings of the radio messages for Verstappen and Vettel. Interesyingly, despite what I read on respected websites, Vettel was told about the 5s penalty on Verstappen before they collided. Not nice to notice the Ferrari engine sounds like a dentist drill to the race engineer... ouch. Also interesting the frequent engine failures for Verstappen. https://m.soundcloud.com/matt-betros/ve ... an-gp-2018.
Engineering thrives on communication.

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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I don't like Vettel that much but people are definitely being a little bit too harsh.

With his 1st lab, he was great. With Ves incident I think it is a racing one but if you have to blame someone it is more of Ves fault. He could have easily prevented the collision by following the "ideal" racing line. He is going tighter than usual to defend against Vettel which is ok but he forced Vettel's hand. It is legal by all means but still a jerk move especially after his collison with Rai, he did not deserve that podium at all.

Ferrari is still a fast car. I think if Vettel wasn't "out", he would challenge Bottas easily seeing how close Ves gotten to him. Some strategy and driver mistakes make Ferraris look slower than they are. Exactly the same perception people had for Merc after Spa. Ferrari and Merc is very very close this year and I believe Vettel will win some races left.

sosic2121
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Wynters wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:40 pm
Actually, this is bonkers!

How did we go from 'It was a stupid place for Vettel to try and overtake but Max could've left him more room...racing incident seems fair." to 'it's always the sole responsibility of the following driver, the laws of physics say it's impossible to slow down and Max was ejected sideways from the track at 100 kph+'?

This is worse than "Vettel forgot to steer" in Baku.

You guys are all correct, I'm clearly wrong. I have no idea what came over me. Vettel clearly and deliberately dive bombed poor, blind little Max from as far back as the pit lane and had no intention of even making the turn. Frankly, he was lucky Max was there to stop him otherwise he would've EXPLODED as he flew off the track at 'Great speed', completely unable to slow down due to the laws of physics. All hail Max, the flawless driver who is never at fault!

Have. Fun.
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SiLo
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Can't always expect someone to react fast enough to someone sending it up the inside at a corner that isn't really a proper overtaking place (at least, until this year it seems). I'd hazard a guess that Max wasn't even looking in his mirrors there (as one would expect) and just came across taking his normal line.

Just because a still image shows Vettel is alongside by a decent margin doesn't really show that the door was closing early on, and his extra speed meant he got alongside VERY quickly.

These guys aren't gods, they still need time to react, and they most certainly can't predict the future.
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Mkrich32
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Good grief folks. Let it go.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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Summary:
1. Max was on the racing line and turning in to the corner as is required in order to get around the corner.
2. Seb sees "the gap" because the racing line at that point is over to the right.
3. Seb tries to get in to "the gap" but seems to forget that Max will be filling that gap very soon as he follows the line.
4. There is contact - no surprise there.
5. Internet forums fill up with people saying Seb's at fault or that Max should have left Seb room.
6. Point 5. carries on for far too long and doesn't change anything.
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