2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
Fulcrum
103
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:05 pm

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Fulcrum » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:00 pm

Phil wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:55 pm
Turbo, you definitely win on the picture part, no arguments there. :oops: BUT; I just wanted to say one thing about my picture: I wasn't trying to show that Vettel would have gone straight. Understanding the proper context is crucial. As I wrote when I posted that illustration;

I drew the ideal racing line (the blue one) which Verstappen was on. The ideal racing line has a distinct advantage; It's the fastest way around a corner with the least amount of turn in (larger radius) and the least amount of deceleration/acceleration (highest cornering speed). It means losing less time on acceleration.

Anything other than the racing line is a compromised line. If you take the corner tighter, you will have to make a compromise in the form of a much lower apex speed in order to make the bend. Again, the red line (Vettels line) is Verstappens line but from the inside. I wanted to illustrate how momentum of taking the same speed at a tighter angle would have carried him out of the corner. Indeed it would have, which is why Vettel would have needed to decelerate more. This is how we end up with your illustration. In order for Vettel to have made the corner according to your illustration, he would have had to drive slower than Verstappen as a result of the tighter radius. If he was already ever so slightly behind Max at the point of impact (= before the apex), he most certainly would have fallen even more behind Max if he wanted to take the line you drew for him.

Hence my point earlier; Even if Max had left more room, by the sheer fact of being that bit further ahead and the fact Vettel would have had to decelerate more for the tighter radius he was on would have meant he would have been behind Max and in a compromised position, hence the overtake wasn't going to happen if or if not Max had given more space.

The only way Vettel would have pulled off that overtake is if he had been completely alongside Max or indeed just that bit further ahead of him before hitting the apex. Then he could have outmaneuvered Max to the outside and forced Max to back out / brake and concede position.
If he had been on the blue line - the ideal racing line - it would indicate he had no prior inclination of an attack from Vettel. If you suspect an attack, you almost always compromise your line in order to defend.

In reality, I don't think Verstappen was on the ideal line. In the approach to Spoon he was nowhere near the outer edge of the circuit at any point. Prior to turning into the apex an entire car's width is available to his right (refer to onboard).

So your diagram is inaccurate (IMO). Verstappen had positioned his car in a compromised position, indicating he sensed he was vulnerable.

The more I look at Verstappen's onboard, the more I think he changed his intent. Initially he thinks he's safe; then he changes his mind, by which time events have already unfolded beyond his control. Its his indecision, coupled with the decisiveness of Vettel, that led to an accident.

turbof1
Moderator
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by turbof1 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:02 pm

dans79 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:50 pm
Sorry Turbo, but I have to disagree with you on this! the conversation shouldn't
be stoped just because a few people don't like it as long as it's not getting out of hand. As in rude behavior.
I think it does. Here. I'll let you guys decide for a new topic, but the discussion ends here in this topic. There are enough events to talk about, so let's stop crowding out the other talking points. That decision is final.
#AeroFrodo

Andres125sx
316
User avatar
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Andres125sx » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:48 pm

Surprisingly it was a fun race, not for the victory obviously but it was fun at the back

Ricciardo keeps doing his job without doing noise, but constantly. This guy is awesome overtaking, IMHO the best in the grid at this respect, aggressive, but respectful. Max recovery in first laps was awesome too, but he still need to learn when to stop pushing

About Max-Kimi clash, it obviously was Max fault, once you go out of track it´s your responsability to rejoin safely and not in front of a car who has no space to go.


About Vettel-Max, to me this is a good example about how absurd is the rule wich states only with the front wing paralel to the rear wheel of the front car, you earned the position. Front driver can´t see that if he´s not looking at his mirrors constantly, and F1 drivers don´t do that.

With this rule on hand, it´s Max fault. From common sense point of view, Max didn´t have time to see Seb trying to pass, so it was Seb fault because he was too optimistic... or simply a racing incident

Just my 2 cents

TAG
113
User avatar
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:18 pm
Location: in a good place

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by TAG » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:59 pm

I think it was mentioned before in the thread but I don't recall seeing an actual answer. I know the Japanese GP used to televise with their own crew and that's no longer the case, but this race "LOOKED and FELT" different. Different shots, a bit more of a film softness to the video rather than the more harsh (although detailed) images we normally get and a general warmth to the colors and their saturation. It also felt as if this was shot on 4k and downscaled into HD.

Visually this made an impact and I wish all races were done this way, it's the one thing I'd love most for Liberty Media to adopt.
Countdown to 91: 7 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

timbo
109
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:14 am

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by timbo » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:37 pm

TAG wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:59 pm
I think it was mentioned before in the thread but I don't recall seeing an actual answer. I know the Japanese GP used to televise with their own crew and that's no longer the case, but this race "LOOKED and FELT" different. Different shots, a bit more of a film softness to the video rather than the more harsh (although detailed) images we normally get and a general warmth to the colors and their saturation. It also felt as if this was shot on 4k and downscaled into HD.

Visually this made an impact and I wish all races were done this way, it's the one thing I'd love most for Liberty Media to adopt.
Yes, agree completely!

foxmulder_ms
2
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by foxmulder_ms » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:55 pm

TAG wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:59 pm
I think it was mentioned before in the thread but I don't recall seeing an actual answer. I know the Japanese GP used to televise with their own crew and that's no longer the case, but this race "LOOKED and FELT" different. Different shots, a bit more of a film softness to the video rather than the more harsh (although detailed) images we normally get and a general warmth to the colors and their saturation. It also felt as if this was shot on 4k and downscaled into HD.

Visually this made an impact and I wish all races were done this way, it's the one thing I'd love most for Liberty Media to adopt.

They should definitely go with 4K. 4K is simply amazing.

Steven
Owner
User avatar
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 5:32 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Steven » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:52 pm

Ok, enough with Verstappen vs Vettel. As much as you all seem to like it, there was imho a much more severe incident during the race. However, it seems all acceptable for Whiting. I don't get this.

I'm talking about LEC vs MAG. Magnussen went right, then left to close the outside, before taking a sharp right move to react on Leclerc's move. That's two moves, no matter how you look at it, and in both cases a reaction to car behind.



I'm not sure if anybody brought this up yet, but the incident is a mirrored version of Verstappen's defensive move against Ricciardo at Baku. That, predictably, also went bust. Verstappen there too changes lines twice, and still believes it's all perfectly acceptable.



For me, it is not. It is almost unavoidable that these tactics lead to retirements, but the retirement alone is apparently not enough of a punishment for these drivers. If nobody intervenes, it (and unsurprisingly, it's always the same drivers) will just continue. Whiting, and the car in front, should realise that with DRS, the closing speeds are pretty high.

I call for penalty points on licenses for this. There seems to be no other way :cry:

Jolle
158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Jolle » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:58 pm

Steven wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:52 pm
Ok, enough with Verstappen vs Vettel. As much as you all seem to like it, there was imho a much more severe incident during the race. However, it seems all acceptable for Whiting. I don't get this.

I'm talking about LEC vs MAG. Magnussen went right, then left to close the outside, before taking a sharp right move to react on Leclerc's move. That's two moves, no matter how you look at it, and in both cases a reaction to car behind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPag5qz ... r_embedded

I'm not sure if anybody brought this up yet, but the incident is a mirrored version of Verstappen's defensive move against Ricciardo at Baku. That, predictably, also went bust. Verstappen there too changes lines twice, and still believes it's all perfectly acceptable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36YFQTFzZwU

For me, it is not. It is almost unavoidable that these tactics lead to retirements, but the retirement alone is apparently not enough of a punishment for these drivers. If nobody intervenes, it (and unsurprisingly, it's always the same drivers) will just continue. Whiting, and the car in front, should realise that with DRS, the closing speeds are pretty high.

I call for penalty points on licenses for this. There seems to be no other way :cry:
Funny thing about that Verstappen move in Baku, it's quite similar what Vettel did to Hamilton in Russia... defend the left, then go right, to the wal, slight hesitation and then close the gap to the wall.

oh, and Rosberg in Spain of course, but then with grass...

Steven
Owner
User avatar
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 5:32 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Steven » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:12 pm

Jolle wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:58 pm
Funny thing about that Verstappen move in Baku, it's quite similar what Vettel did to Hamilton in Russia... defend the left, then go right, to the wal, slight hesitation and then close the gap to the wall.

oh, and Rosberg in Spain of course, but then with grass...
Agreed. Vettel's move in Russia was equally bad. Two moves. Last time I checked, this wasn't allowed.

Rosberg in Spain 2017 was indeed similar. The speed difference there due to the engine mappings was similar to DRS overtakes, and with the same predictable outcome. I don't think I need to write who I think was to blame there.

In all cases, the driver ahead is aware that the car behind will be considerably faster, and that a coming together is extremely likely. I think that's "causing a collision", which was also not allowed. At least not in the rulebook that I know of.

Edax
58
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:47 pm

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Edax » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:22 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:46 am
Can we atleast agree the idea of "it's not an overtaking place" is quite bonkers? It's not the corner that presents an overtaking opportunity, but it's your distance, closing speed and a gap that determines that. Nobody is driving around with a list of none-overtake places around in his or her head. I have never seen one driver who neglected an overtaking opportunity because the reasoning is "this is not an usual overtaking spot".

This for the record completely aside the Vettel/Verstappen incident. Please don't take my words and let it resolve again around those 2, I've personally had enough of it as well. I would also personally encourage to stop discussing this. I think by now anybody has an opinion that they will stick to it.
I don’t want to get to get mixed in the VES VET slugfest, but I do like to respond to your first remark. I agree under the right circumstances overtaking is possible anywhere. People have done overtakes in Eau Rouge and Parabolica. But don’t you agree inside spoon it is extremely difficult?

Just, look at how you get there. You approach over a crest with the wrong side of the car loaded, the braking point itself is blind and downhill and the corner is off-camber. The racing line is extremely narrow. It is a prototypical example of the philosophy of Hugenholz, make a corner such that it tests the driver at speed and punishes them hard for not getting their line spot on (At that time they were less occupied with overtaking statistics).

Overtaking there might not be impossible but it is hard. Perhaps some have better memory than me but I cannot remember ever have seen it done this way. Overtaking when you are side by side in 200R, yes, or in the middle part of the corner combination when someone overcooked his entry, also, but from behind and on the apex, no.

foxmulder_ms
2
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by foxmulder_ms » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:42 pm

Edax wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:22 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:46 am
Can we atleast agree the idea of "it's not an overtaking place" is quite bonkers? It's not the corner that presents an overtaking opportunity, but it's your distance, closing speed and a gap that determines that. Nobody is driving around with a list of none-overtake places around in his or her head. I have never seen one driver who neglected an overtaking opportunity because the reasoning is "this is not an usual overtaking spot".

This for the record completely aside the Vettel/Verstappen incident. Please don't take my words and let it resolve again around those 2, I've personally had enough of it as well. I would also personally encourage to stop discussing this. I think by now anybody has an opinion that they will stick to it.
I don’t want to get to get mixed in the VES VET slugfest, but I do like to respond to your first remark. I agree under the right circumstances overtaking is possible anywhere. People have done overtakes in Eau Rouge and Parabolica. But don’t you agree inside spoon it is extremely difficult?

Just, look at how you get there. You approach over a crest with the wrong side of the car loaded, the braking point itself is blind and downhill and the corner is off-camber. The racing line is extremely narrow. It is a prototypical example of the philosophy of Hugenholz, make a corner such that it tests the driver at speed and punishes them hard for not getting their line spot on (At that time they were less occupied with overtaking statistics).

Overtaking there might not be impossible but it is hard. Perhaps some have better memory than me but I cannot remember ever have seen it done this way. Overtaking when you are side by side in 200R, yes, or in the middle part of the corner combination when someone overcooked his entry, also, but from behind and on the apex, no.

The last race proved it is one of the best places ;0

sosic2121
18
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by sosic2121 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:12 pm

Steven wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:12 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:58 pm
Funny thing about that Verstappen move in Baku, it's quite similar what Vettel did to Hamilton in Russia... defend the left, then go right, to the wal, slight hesitation and then close the gap to the wall.

oh, and Rosberg in Spain of course, but then with grass...
Agreed. Vettel's move in Russia was equally bad. Two moves. Last time I checked, this wasn't allowed.

Rosberg in Spain 2016 was indeed similar.
I honestly can't understand how can you compare these 2 incidents with Baku incident!? :wtf:

Andres125sx
316
User avatar
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Andres125sx » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:24 am

Edax wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:22 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:46 am
Can we atleast agree the idea of "it's not an overtaking place" is quite bonkers? It's not the corner that presents an overtaking opportunity, but it's your distance, closing speed and a gap that determines that. Nobody is driving around with a list of none-overtake places around in his or her head. I have never seen one driver who neglected an overtaking opportunity because the reasoning is "this is not an usual overtaking spot".

This for the record completely aside the Vettel/Verstappen incident. Please don't take my words and let it resolve again around those 2, I've personally had enough of it as well. I would also personally encourage to stop discussing this. I think by now anybody has an opinion that they will stick to it.
I don’t want to get to get mixed in the VES VET slugfest, but I do like to respond to your first remark. I agree under the right circumstances overtaking is possible anywhere. People have done overtakes in Eau Rouge and Parabolica. But don’t you agree inside spoon it is extremely difficult?

Just, look at how you get there. You approach over a crest with the wrong side of the car loaded, the braking point itself is blind and downhill and the corner is off-camber. The racing line is extremely narrow. It is a prototypical example of the philosophy of Hugenholz, make a corner such that it tests the driver at speed and punishes them hard for not getting their line spot on (At that time they were less occupied with overtaking statistics).

Overtaking there might not be impossible but it is hard. Perhaps some have better memory than me but I cannot remember ever have seen it done this way. Overtaking when you are side by side in 200R, yes, or in the middle part of the corner combination when someone overcooked his entry, also, but from behind and on the apex, no.
If you watched the race you should know it may be difficult, but far from impossible, basically because some car passed at exactly that point in the race


But I agree it is not a standard overtaking point as spoon is narrow and difficult. But there´s a staight (it´s a corner, but flat out) from the hairpin to spoon, so the chasing car can go out of the hairpin close to the car in front, take advantage of the slipstream, and attack at spoon

Traditionally it has never been an overtaking point because corner 12 was not flat out or if it was there was no margin to loose some DF if getting too close to the car in front, so no chance to get into the slipstream of the car in front before spoon. But nowadays corner 12 is flat out easily so they can keep into the slipstream of the car in front and get to spoon really close

iotar__
5
User avatar
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:31 am

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by iotar__ » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:22 am

turbof1 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:46 am
Can we atleast agree the idea of "it's not an overtaking place" is quite bonkers? It's not the corner that presents an overtaking opportunity, but it's your distance, closing speed and a gap that determines that. Nobody is driving around with a list of none-overtake places around in his or her head. I have never seen one driver who neglected an overtaking opportunity because the reasoning is "this is not an usual overtaking spot".

This for the record completely aside the Vettel/Verstappen incident. Please don't take my words and let it resolve again around those 2, I've personally had enough of it as well. I would also personally encourage to stop discussing this. I think by now anybody has an opinion that they will stick to it.
I don't see any quotes so let's put this in straw man category =P~ .

Numerous people are wasting time discussing characteristics of one particular bad overtaking attempt thus validating this spot as a place where overtaking is possible. Of course in the context of lack of penalty for wreckles driving and causing a collision.

There's even a video linked (F1 official youtube channel onboards) with well not overtaking but passing by Haas there ~4:30. The speed Ferrari takes through the corner (later stage) is very telling. It's telling us is that when you brake like Vettel. move suddenly left you won't make it through the corner. Either that or it was sensible or whatever Whiting called it attempt :D .

turbof1
Moderator
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by turbof1 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:32 am

iotar__ wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:22 am
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:46 am
Can we atleast agree the idea of "it's not an overtaking place" is quite bonkers? It's not the corner that presents an overtaking opportunity, but it's your distance, closing speed and a gap that determines that. Nobody is driving around with a list of none-overtake places around in his or her head. I have never seen one driver who neglected an overtaking opportunity because the reasoning is "this is not an usual overtaking spot".

This for the record completely aside the Vettel/Verstappen incident. Please don't take my words and let it resolve again around those 2, I've personally had enough of it as well. I would also personally encourage to stop discussing this. I think by now anybody has an opinion that they will stick to it.
I don't see any quotes so let's put this in straw man category =P~ .

Numerous people are wasting time discussing characteristics of one particular bad overtaking attempt thus validating this spot as a place where overtaking is possible. Of course in the context of lack of penalty for wreckles driving and causing a collision.

There's even a video linked (F1 official youtube channel onboards) with well not overtaking but passing by Haas there ~4:30. The speed Ferrari takes through the corner (later stage) is very telling. It's telling us is that when you brake like Vettel. move suddenly left you won't make it through the corner. Either that or it was sensible or whatever Whiting called it attempt :D .
Same goes for you, iotar:
This for the record completely aside the Vettel/Verstappen incident. Please don't take my words and let it resolve again around those 2
#AeroFrodo