2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Phil
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:49 pm
I assume the the clause would be a direct comparison to his teammate. it's already been said that Leclerc is seen as Ferrari's future. Thus, if he beats Vettel next year, or is very close to him, I could see Vettel potentially being dropped. It would clear a potential seat for Giovinazzi, and would also free up a lot of money.
True, but I am rather doubtful this could be contractually enforced or stipulated. I wouldn't think any driver in their right mind would sign a contract that reads something along the lines of "you must beat your team-mate". Also, Vettel signed his contract last year for 3 years. He wouldn't know who his team-mate is, given his 'team-mate' at the time was on a yearly contractual basis.

I just don't see it, sorry. Also, when Alonso came to Ferrari in 2010, there were many reasons to sign him as the replacement of Kimi. There was a multi-million offering/backing in the form of Santander that was tied to the signing of Alonso. In other words, that sponsorship also financed buying out Kimi's clause.

Vettel has a contract for 2020. If he doesn't race in 2020, will be because either the team buys out his contract (some financial exit clause) or they reach some mutual agreement or there is some performance clause that is activated. But at this point, I can't imagine what performance clause might trigger that would give the team the power to fire Vettel prematurely, unless he drops to 7th in the WDC or something while the car (WCC) is either leading the championship or in the top2. And as much as Vettel might make mistakes, I really don't see that happening.
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:56 pm
Does anyone really believe that Alonso would come back to F1, specifically to Ferrari, after a year out doing other stuff? If he enjoys Indy / WEC / whatever then why come back? At his age, an extra title won't make much difference. Enjoying racing again would be a bigger draw, surely. And he still has his Grand Slam aspirations too.
You don't think given his character, knowing Vettel (whom we knows he doesn't hold in the same regards) having more success and titles rubs him the wrong way just a little? Enough to come back should he see an opportunity like Hamilton had in 2013.
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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TAG wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:29 pm
You don't think given his character, knowing Vettel (whom we knows he doesn't hold in the same regards) having more success and titles rubs him the wrong way just a little? Enough to come back should he see an opportunity like Hamilton had in 2013.
Dunno, it seems to me that he's fallen out of love with F1 and found racing love elsewhere now. One of the things about the "racing heroes of old" is that they weren't single trick ponies. They raced and won in multiple types of event. I think ALonso realises that having X F1 titles isn't that big a deal unless you can get up there with Fangio and Schuie. Being 2, 3 or even 4 times champion isn't enough. It's got to be 5, 6 or 7 to be in the modern F1 Pantheon. He's got to be realistic enough to know that coming back in 2020 won't give him enough chance of doing that. But winning the Indy 500, perhaps the Indy series and / or the WEC? That would be a string to his bow that Hamilton, Vettel and Schuie don't have.

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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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At age 37, Alonso is no spring chicken; so the chances of his coming back are very slim, not to talk of coming back to win one or more titles.
Instead, how long will it take for Giovinazzi to get the seat beside LecLerc? With the way things are going, Vettel might be out sooner than we think and Giovinazzi is showing brilliant speed during test sessions.
Last edited by GrandAxe on Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Well, for once, why do you think Alonso would want to come back to the team?
Sure, Ferrari is miles ahead of McLaren now, but the team still hasn't shown the ability to produce a car that can consistently beat Mercedes.
And what's there in the future? If Honda produces an engine that's closer to Merc or Ferrari than Renault (some signs are already here) RedBull also becomes a contender.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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GrandAxe wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:09 am
At age 37, Alonso is no spring chicken; so the chances of his coming back are very slim, not to talk of coming back to win one or more titles.
Instead, how will it take for Giovinazzi to get the seat beside LecLerc? With the way things are going, Vettel might be out sooner than we think and Giovinazzi has showing brilliant speed during test sessions.
2 points I'd like to mention, there are plenty of people who still think Kimi should stay (they may just be Vettel fans, or kimi fans) and Kimi it 2yrs older than Alonso, so i don't see age being an issue.

As for Giovinazzi, I dont think he has a chance at the Ferrari seat alongside Leclerc. Ferrari just won't put 2 drivers in their race car in 2020 with a combination of 3yrs experience. I think one of Bottas, Perez, Grosjean, Hulk all have a better chance than Gio purely on experience.
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:37 am
GrandAxe wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:09 am
At age 37, Alonso is no spring chicken; so the chances of his coming back are very slim, not to talk of coming back to win one or more titles.
Instead, how will it take for Giovinazzi to get the seat beside LecLerc? With the way things are going, Vettel might be out sooner than we think and Giovinazzi has showing brilliant speed during test sessions.
2 points I'd like to mention, there are plenty of people who still think Kimi should stay (they may just be Vettel fans, or kimi fans) and Kimi it 2yrs older than Alonso, so i don't see age being an issue.

As for Giovinazzi, I dont think he has a chance at the Ferrari seat alongside Leclerc. Ferrari just won't put 2 drivers in their race car in 2020 with a combination of 3yrs experience. I think one of Bottas, Perez, Grosjean, Hulk all have a better chance than Gio purely on experience.
Look at Max for instance, he has all the talent and a quick young fella. But does anyone here think he is ready to be in a championship fight and win against the mighty combination of Lewis and Mercedes? Ferrari needs someone who is unflappable and even if he is a tenth slower than Lewis, the guy has to be right on the throat and pounce on any mistake that Lewis or Mercedes (who have in fact done a few this year) does. Someone who can make the punishment for those mistakes look unbearable AND importantly, push them to make mistakes. In my opinion, I can't think of anyone other than Alonso who is capable of doing that.

Having two rookies (for that matter, like an "inexperienced/little experienced" pair of Leclerc and Giovinazzi) is a recipe for disaster for any of the top three teams, unless the team can churn out a MP4/4, F2004, RB7/9, W05-W07. If the situation is as competitive as it has been this year and last, then talent with experience easily out powers anything else.

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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:37 am
GrandAxe wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:09 am
At age 37, Alonso is no spring chicken; so the chances of his coming back are very slim, not to talk of coming back to win one or more titles.
Instead, how will it take for Giovinazzi to get the seat beside LecLerc? With the way things are going, Vettel might be out sooner than we think and Giovinazzi has showing brilliant speed during test sessions.
2 points I'd like to mention, there are plenty of people who still think Kimi should stay (they may just be Vettel fans, or kimi fans) and Kimi it 2yrs older than Alonso, so i don't see age being an issue.

As for Giovinazzi, I dont think he has a chance at the Ferrari seat alongside Leclerc. Ferrari just won't put 2 drivers in their race car in 2020 with a combination of 3yrs experience. I think one of Bottas, Perez, Grosjean, Hulk all have a better chance than Gio purely on experience.
Need for experience is relative to a lot of things; team experience, driver availability, the characters of those involved (team and drivers), team culture, drivers technical abilities etc. So, in the sort of fix that Ferrari finds itself in (with a four time WDC no less), other considerations could well trump driver experience.

Strangely, I am one of those who thinks old man Kimi should stay to form a potent combination with Leclerc. The difference to Alonso is that Kimi would not be coming in (with WDC dreams) to mould the team in his image, even as a driver in his twilight years - thus stifling the growth of tomorrows hope.
Kimi is also very steady, practical and has huge technical depth; all assets for the structuring of a new kid.

In the possible position that Leclerc proves faster and more consistent than Vettel, we could see Vettel's performance headed for the Arctic, becoming a burden rather than an asset. In such a situation, it would be better to have Giovinazzi beside Leclerc instead.

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ringo
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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GPR -A wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:02 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:37 am
GrandAxe wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:09 am
At age 37, Alonso is no spring chicken; so the chances of his coming back are very slim, not to talk of coming back to win one or more titles.
Instead, how will it take for Giovinazzi to get the seat beside LecLerc? With the way things are going, Vettel might be out sooner than we think and Giovinazzi has showing brilliant speed during test sessions.
2 points I'd like to mention, there are plenty of people who still think Kimi should stay (they may just be Vettel fans, or kimi fans) and Kimi it 2yrs older than Alonso, so i don't see age being an issue.

As for Giovinazzi, I dont think he has a chance at the Ferrari seat alongside Leclerc. Ferrari just won't put 2 drivers in their race car in 2020 with a combination of 3yrs experience. I think one of Bottas, Perez, Grosjean, Hulk all have a better chance than Gio purely on experience.
Look at Max for instance, he has all the talent and a quick young fella. But does anyone here think he is ready to be in a championship fight and win against the mighty combination of Lewis and Mercedes? Ferrari needs someone who is unflappable and even if he is a tenth slower than Lewis, the guy has to be right on the throat and pounce on any mistake that Lewis or Mercedes (who have in fact done a few this year) does. Someone who can make the punishment for those mistakes look unbearable AND importantly, push them to make mistakes. In my opinion, I can't think of anyone other than Alonso who is capable of doing that.

Having two rookies (for that matter, like an "inexperienced/little experienced" pair of Leclerc and Giovinazzi) is a recipe for disaster for any of the top three teams, unless the team can churn out a MP4/4, F2004, RB7/9, W05-W07. If the situation is as competitive as it has been this year and last, then talent with experience easily out powers anything else.
Alonso is the best choice but he will stiffle Leclerc and poison him over the year. I don't think Alonso plays the role of teammate well off the track. He is not a Massa or Button, or Barichello when it comes to being an experienced driver to learn from for a young driver. Alonso will scar Leclerc mentally i feel.

I'm going to beat the dead horse and say that Perez is their guy to get the ferrari championship provided the ferrari is equally fast or faster than the Mercedes. Perez is highly underrated. No one has put a midfield car on the podium more than Perez and no one has performed at such a consisently high level. He's one of the more inteligent drivers on the grid and he has the right touch of selfishness and ruthlessness to ensure he has the team orders working for him.
Also he is not so poisonous as fernando to scar the rest of the team mentally.
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:21 pm
Alonso is the best choice but he will stiffle Leclerc and poison him over the year. I don't think Alonso plays the role of teammate well off the track. He is not a Massa or Button, or Barichello when it comes to being an experienced driver to learn from for a young driver. Alonso will scar Leclerc mentally i feel.
It's strange that his own team mates haven't complained about his behavior towards them, just like most of his bosses haven't about his involvement in the team. It's always the people totally unconnected who level these allegations.

Here is a small instance of Fernando's relationship with Vandoorne.
Alonso wants McLaren to investigate Vandoorne's car
Fernando Alonso has called on McLaren to conduct a deep investigation into Stoffel Vandoorne's car after his teammate struggled for performance for the second weekend in a row.
http://f1i.com/news/285693-vandoorne-al ... entor.html
Vandoorne denied however that his relationship was comparable to that of Lance Stroll and Felipe Massa at Williams, insisting the two-time world champion was not his mentor.
"No!" he told Brazil's Globo.
"Of course we work together on the same team and in the same direction, but he does not stand next to me helping.
"We are very open and have normal conversations when we are out of the car," Vandoorne added. "But he is not there to be my mentor.
"Maybe Lance needs this, I don't know."
Vandoorne admitted however that racing alongside one of F1's greatest drivers did have its benefits.
"He's probably the best reference in formula one," Vandoorne agrees.
"I have a good relationship with him, even if there is a lot of competition, which is normal.
"We do not have a strong package this year, but it has been positive for me because I had the chance to get quite close to him," he added.
ringo wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:21 pm
I'm going to beat the dead horse and say that Perez is their guy to get the ferrari championship provided the ferrari is equally fast or faster than the Mercedes. Perez is highly underrated. No one has put a midfield car on the podium more than Perez and no one has performed at such a consisently high level. He's one of the more inteligent drivers on the grid and he has the right touch of selfishness and ruthlessness to ensure he has the team orders working for him.
Also he is not so poisonous as fernando to scar the rest of the team mentally.
My argument is about who can beat Lewis-Mercedes combination and I am not sure if Perez has the material to do that. Quite often he has been beaten by his team mates in qualifying and doesn't have such a great spatial awareness to come out on top in wheel to wheel battles. Especially if he does what he did to Sirotkin in Singapore, he might get black flagged in a championship battle. His coming together with his team mate so many times doesn't do well for his stakes either.

In a mid-field full of unpredictable drivers, most of whom want to win the race by first corner and gets into clumsy battles, where teams constantly make bad strategy calls, Force India pit wall has been a revelation. They manage the races like a championship winning team and always put their drivers in a position to score points every time. It's only their drivers who have come together and thrown away valuable points.

He might be a good second driver for a team, but being an Alpha in a team? Well, that is too far fetched imagination.

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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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First time I think since Massa/Räikkönen that a second Ferrari won a race in a season!!

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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Jolle wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:12 pm
First time I think since Massa/Räikkönen that a second Ferrari won a race in a season!!
You are correct. That's really something :shock: It has been quite some time.
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ringo
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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GPR -A wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:58 pm
My argument is about who can beat Lewis-Mercedes combination and I am not sure if Perez has the material to do that. Quite often he has been beaten by his team mates in qualifying and doesn't have such a great spatial awareness to come out on top in wheel to wheel battles. Especially if he does what he did to Sirotkin in Singapore, he might get black flagged in a championship battle. His coming together with his team mate so many times doesn't do well for his stakes either.

In a mid-field full of unpredictable drivers, most of whom want to win the race by first corner and gets into clumsy battles, where teams constantly make bad strategy calls, Force India pit wall has been a revelation. They manage the races like a championship winning team and always put their drivers in a position to score points every time. It's only their drivers who have come together and thrown away valuable points.

He might be a good second driver for a team, but being an Alpha in a team? Well, that is too far fetched imagination.
I think he deserves more credit. Its not just force indias pitwall, otherwise other drivers would have got podiums with the team. Who else in the midfield is gettinf podiums in a car that is not top 3?
But as you say i dont think there is anyone out there who is going to beat hamilton over a season.
Max verstappen i think needs to have the fastest car to do this. He is crazy enough in the head to not get nervous and keep composure. But his craziness is also his weakness. Hamilton will just provoke him verbally and also on track to make errors. But having seen todays race. Max needs a top redbull. Not a ferrari. He needs the redbull with the superior grip and chassis as it fits his style.
He would have a shout of beating Lewis. I dont know about 21 races but he can give hamilton a good run.
I beleive that a 40 year old Hamilton would be weak enough to be beaten by a 27 year old Max though!
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Speculating as to how Vettel has influenced his own championship chances.

Since the Canadian GP, i.e. France and onward, Vettel has scored 155 points to Raikkonen's 153; both driver's experiencing 1 retirement each in that interval.

From Australia to Canada, Vettel scored 121 points to Raikkonen's 68, Raikkonen experiencing 2 retirements during that interval, Vettel having none.

Equalizing for retirements, the gap between Vettel and Raikkonen would be closer to 25 points across the season.

Raikkonen's average points per race has steadily increased during the V6-Turbo era.

2014 - 2.89 points per race
2015 - 7.89 points per race
2016 - 8.86 points per race
2017 - 10.25 points per race
2018 - 12.28 points per race (thus far)

I'm not suggesting Raikkonen is as quick as Vettel, this is patently false. Raikkonen's points trajectory is a reference for how much the car has improved.

Rather, I think the 155-153 point's tally since Canada reflects just how many points Vettel has dropped of his own accord.

Germany - crashes out from 1st (32 point differential in favour of Hamilton; 25-0 should have been 18-25).
Italy - contact with Hamilton; I personally think he had would have won this race, even if he'd been 3rd on lap 1 (20 point differential to Hamilton; 25-12 should have been 18-25).
Japan - hitting Max, threw away at least 3rd (7 point differential to Hamilton; 25-8 should have been 25-15).
USA - you'd have to imagine Vettel had a great chance of winning this race considering the pace in the car. Ferrari would have swopped Kimi and Vettel in those circumstances (16 point differential to Hamilton; 15-12 should have been 12-25).

The current gap is 70 points. I reckon as much as 32+20+7+16 of that is all due to Vettel making mistakes. Without those errors, Vettel could be leading Hamilton by 5 points, with Hamilton being on 329 points and Vettel on 334.

That's the "best" worst case scenario, and it is fair to suggest Vettel wouldn't have won all of Germany, Italy or USA. If he'd managed 2nd in each event, then Hamilton would have 343 points, and Vettel 313.

All told, both championships would still be on the line.

With Raikkonen actually managing to take points off Hamilton (for only the second time this season when both have finished), a gap of at most 30 points, and in some scenarios an actual lead, would have this championship on a knife edge with 3 rounds to go.

It's a pity that Vettel has literally lost control 4 times in 8 races.

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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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if they want a championship before these regulations change in 2021. only option is alonso else hamilton will be 7 time world champion.