F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
strad
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by strad » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:59 am

M-B likely figured that its 'select client-group' would find the threshing din of a gear-train.. aurally objectionable
I can understand that, however on many a hi-performance small block Chevy especially racing ones a gear drive has been preferable and I personally love the sound of a Pete Jackson gear drive.
I can see that some guy spending AMG prices might not agree. :lol:
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

Brian.G
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by Brian.G » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:03 pm

Jonny Quest wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:51 pm
Typically the intake valve opens BTDC. I think your open and closing points are incorrect.

Brian are you in USA? I'd measure the cam for you on camshaft measuring test stand.
I'm based out of Ireland sadly - however, I do have a servo here as well as a glass scale linear encoder so will rig up something soon to get some higher res readings.

As mentioned a lot of times, the tdc/btc points mean nothing on graph and were just starting points for me on the generic degree wheel.

Brian,
If you think you cant, you wont, If you think you can, you will

riff_raff
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by riff_raff » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:16 am

Note the torsional dampener mounted at the rear end of the LH intake camshaft of this V8 race engine.
Image
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

roon
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by roon » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:37 pm

riff_raff wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:16 am
Note the torsional dampener mounted at the rear end of the LH intake camshaft of this V8 race engine.
https://car.watch.impress.co.jp/img/car ... 49/111.jpg
Also: viewtopic.php?p=713472#p713472

LeeJohnson
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by LeeJohnson » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:38 pm

Brian --

I just found your "articles" dissecting F1 engines & sub-systems. Wonderful, impressive efforts on your part! Thanks for expanding my (and many others, I'm sure) knowledge.

My suggestion for another topic is the dissection of an F1 engine dry-sump oil system (especially the pump and scavenge oil de-aeration hardware). I recall reading that de-aeration began to be used on DFVs; I bet it is more sophisticated now.

Lee

Brian.G
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by Brian.G » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:52 pm

LeeJohnson wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:38 pm
Brian --

I just found your "articles" dissecting F1 engines & sub-systems. Wonderful, impressive efforts on your part! Thanks for expanding my (and many others, I'm sure) knowledge.

My suggestion for another topic is the dissection of an F1 engine dry-sump oil system (especially the pump and scavenge oil de-aeration hardware). I recall reading that de-aeration began to be used on DFVs; I bet it is more sophisticated now.

Lee
Lee, thanks for the kind words - your suggestion above is exactly the plan for a very large article in a fortnight or so.

Brian,
If you think you cant, you wont, If you think you can, you will

LeeJohnson
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by LeeJohnson » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:39 pm

I am looking forward to that one. Might arrive as a Thanksgiving gift for us Yanks!

Lee

saviour stivala
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by saviour stivala » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:05 pm

Brian.G wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:52 pm
LeeJohnson wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:38 pm
Brian --

I just found your "articles" dissecting F1 engines & sub-systems. Wonderful, impressive efforts on your part! Thanks for expanding my (and many others, I'm sure) knowledge.

My suggestion for another topic is the dissection of an F1 engine dry-sump oil system (especially the pump and scavenge oil de-aeration hardware). I recall reading that de-aeration began to be used on DFVs; I bet it is more sophisticated now.

Lee
Lee, thanks for the kind words - your suggestion above is exactly the plan for a very large article in a fortnight or so.

Brian,
The DFV was far from being the first to start de-aerating its scavenged oil, every dry-sump system ever used had always by design necessity to de-aerate the returning oil to the holding oil tank/reservoir. The DFV scavenge system was one of the first problems that had to be sorted-out. Further, the DFV only compartmentalized two V-TWIN crankpins (four cylinders) having lower crankcase bulkheads that forms part of the lower main bearings on only number 1 – 3 and 5 main bearings. Normal main bearing caps were used for number 2 and 4.
An example of a fully flagged racing dry sump system was the tipo 049 FERRARI V10 which was number six in the evolving series of FERRARI V10 engines. It used an oil de-aerator that ‘centrifugally’ separated large volume of air from the oil that draw from five individual V-TWIN sealed crankcases. The capacity of scavenge pumps was such that the crankshaft ran in a partial vacuum to reduce wind-age losses. A single oil pressure gear-pump at 1-2 bar running at 32.5 percent engine speed was used, eleven Eaton oil scavenge pumps running at 35.5 percent engine speed plus one Eaton scavenge pump running at 32.5 percent engine speed were use, an oil-air separator spinning at 71.5 percent engine speed was used in the make-up of the dry-sump system.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:45 pm

the DFV was significant as first to use air entrainment to scavenge the oil from the camboxes etc against cornering forces

hardingfv32
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by hardingfv32 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:00 am

Can you expand on air entrainment used to scavenge oil.

Brian

Tommy Cookers
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:36 am

early DFVs had vane-type air pumps dragging frothy oil back to the tank from places where scavenge needed help
the froth of oil being dragged along by the moving air - a swanky word for this is entrainment
and for 1970 they introduced large Roots-type 'froth pumps' and centrifugal seperators
(see cosworthstory.pdf from grandprixengines.co.uk)

my guess is that some used separators (without air suction pumps) pre DFV
how many WDCs and WCCs did the Brabham win with a wet sump just before the DFV ?
these and even the last 1.5 litre F1 V8 cars had wide slicks and so developed a lot of lateral 'g'
though 60 and 180 deg deg V12s and transverse V12s probably collected oil to scavenge pumps better than the 90 deg V8s
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

saviour stivala
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by saviour stivala » Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:14 pm

One of the first problem the DFV encountered was filling the valve covers with oil, the first temporary fix was drilling holes and catch the drained oil in an outside tank, this fix was used for the first races. When an air pump was fitted the breather pipe was used to drew air into the engine rather letting the over-run out (entrainment), but this caused the system to feed so much air into its oil tank that the oil/air separator would frequently fail.

humble sabot
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by humble sabot » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:30 am

That sounds like a tricky problem to balance.
How is that managed on modern engines such as the subject of the thread?
the four immutable forces:
static balance
dynamic balance
static imbalance
dynamic imbalance

saviour stivala
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by saviour stivala » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:09 pm

humble sabot wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:30 am
That sounds like a tricky problem to balance.
How is that managed on modern engines such as the subject of the thread?

If you are referring to the DFV scavenging initial design problems (filling valve covers with oil) because of inadequate drain back to the sump that manifested itself on its very first dyno runs, that was a surprise problem to many people because dry sump systems with the necessary scavenging was used from decades before. At that time I don’t believe that running the rotating parts in crankcase and valve covers in a partial vacuum was with us yet.

saviour stivala
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Re: F1 V10 Intake Camshaft Spec, a closer look

Post by saviour stivala » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:12 pm

Brian G brilliant efforts have enriched those interested knowledge like nobody ever did before. Awaiting restlessly the forthcoming scavenge system article assuming it also pertains the TJ V10.