2009 design concepts

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guy_smiley
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Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:22 am

Re: 2009 design concepts

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timbo wrote:
miqi23 wrote:Have a look at the Ferrari A1GP car, that looks like a 2009 F1 car! Wider tyres, smooth body work, lower front wing and a narrower rear wing.
Yep! I thought that Ferrari may use the info from A1GP to their advantage.
Same with me. Their acquisition of the A1GP cars seemed eerily well-timed to me, and I was thinking it might help them to cope with 2009.
bazanaius wrote: IIRC the A1GP car is based upon the F2004, and hence is already outdated. also, it runs a completely different engine packaging.
Not to disagree (because there's no way for us to know if indeed they are using or not using the A1GP data), but on the flip side I was thinking the F2004 had much fewer flick-ups etc. that are banned for 2009 which would give them some good info. In other words, the aero for 2009 IS going to be outdated (if I'm not mistaken), just like the F2004's aero. And also the F2004 was such an unbelievably good car--IF Ferrari thought the 2009 cars were something similar to 2004 cars, well then wow they have a great baseline! :D
Smiles all 'round!

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guy_smiley
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Re: 2009 design concepts

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zac510 wrote:
jwielage wrote:
A 50% reduction of downforce is a huge change to the technical regs which will require more than just an evolution of the prior year's design.
You haven't given any evidence to prove this statement.
???? Sorry, zac, I don't really understand your response...To use your own words, YOU "haven't given any evidence to prove" otherwise. I haven't either, but I'm just defending 'jwielage.' Technical Directors have said that the 2009 cars will look a lot different, and there are SO many changes for next year. zac, do you deny that the 2009 cars will be revolutions instead of evolutions? Personally, I think that the changes in regs in and of themselves are a revolution--not an evolution. I'm sorry zac, but your response is utterly useless--it serves no purpose. And if you're going to dish it out, are you ready to take it? In other words, have you never, ever, posted something that was not backed by factual information? C'mon. Nothin against ya dude, but it just seemed a little uncalled for...Perhaps ogami can shed some light--he seems to be very good with the 2009 regs.

'jwielage' wrote: "To be honest I don't fully understand how the FIA plans to enforce this aero reduction."

You raise a good point, but I think you also answered it in the same post. Although all the cars will comply with the regs, some will produce more downforce and have a better package than others just like they do today (e.g. Ferrari vs. Force India). To me it simply comes down to how good your aero/mech/development guys are and how many resources you put into it early on...
Smiles all 'round!

twoshots
twoshots
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Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:37 am

Re: 2009 design concepts

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Maybe it was just the 50% number???

zac510
zac510
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Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:58 am

Re: 2009 design concepts

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guy_smiley wrote:
???? Sorry, zac, I don't really understand your response...To use your own words, YOU "haven't given any evidence to prove" otherwise. I haven't either, but I'm just defending 'jwielage.' Technical Directors have said that the 2009 cars will look a lot different, and there are SO many changes for next year. zac, do you deny that the 2009 cars will be revolutions instead of evolutions? Personally, I think that the changes in regs in and of themselves are a revolution--not an evolution. I'm sorry zac, but your response is utterly useless--it serves no purpose. And if you're going to dish it out, are you ready to take it? In other words, have you never, ever, posted something that was not backed by factual information? C'mon. Nothin against ya dude, but it just seemed a little uncalled for...Perhaps ogami can shed some light--he seems to be very good with the 2009 regs.
Yeah sorry I didn't mean it to sound like a personal attack, sorry jwielage.

But what I am trying to say is that while downforce is decreased (and indications are that the 50% value is quite optimistic) we should look for evidence from team designers or anything that the core values of the car are going to need to be revolutionalised.

The kind of thing I am talking about would be for example the change of track width and change of tyres in 1998 (http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00289.html). This caused the balance of the car to be changed by disrupting the accepted track:wheelbase ratios and that affected aerodynamics too. Teams that went evolutionary that year made a mistake.

Originally the big slick rear tyres for 2009 might have caused a bit of a balance chaneg in grip, weight distribution and aero drag but they seem to have abandoned that so all 4 tyres will be the same size as they are now. The track width change for 2009 has, to my knowledge, been abandoned too. That would have stuffed everything up like in 1998. The new diffuser changes might upset the aerodynamic balance a bit but probably not as much as the other two rules I mentioned. So no surprises why those rules were dropped first! :) KERS is looking shaky.

See what I'm getting at? None of the tech directors are making noises about fundamental changes to the balance of the car, then putting the rule changes in historical context we see there's not yet any real evidence that everyone's design will need to be revolutionary. At the moment we've just got some less downforce and a bit more grip from tyres the same size.

I'm still open to seeing some evidence though. In the meantime I think f1t is more intelligent than to just have idle speculation.

Perhaps Honda need some revolution as their chassis of the last two years have been poor but that's nothing to do with the rule changes!
No good turn goes unpunished.

Ogami musashi
Ogami musashi
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Re: 2009 design concepts

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The amount of downforce is not a problem, the thing that will really make it different is that the front wing will be really low and really large thus it needed sidepods and bargeboards (last news is that they'll be here but in very reduced form) to be redesigned.

The rear wing will also be very different.

The sidepods dimensions are not the same, there's a lot of discussions about them right now.


I don't think the aero will be outdated, but for sure those measures are short term only as in 2011 we'll need something more in tune with the current research trends.

mmm again me thinking we should merge all of this into the Future regulations thread, because again, we're starting talking about the rules...

jwielage
jwielage
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Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:12 pm
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Re: 2009 design concepts

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Guy_smiley thank you for defeneding my point. Zac510, no worries we are in good company so no offence is taken.

We should not get hung up on semantics. Evolution, or revolution the 2009 cars will look and behave quite differently than the 2008 cars did. And to be honest I am excited about it. I know that I shouldn't get my hopes up, but it would be great if these aero changes led to some GP2 like on track battles. I know that there are a lot of other variables to control for when compairing GP2 to F1, however the lower ratio of aero grip to mechanical grip in GP2 cars makes them more condusive to overtaking and close racing.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so" - Mark Twain

pranav
pranav
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Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:24 am

Re: 2009 design concepts

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Wont there be two seperate wings behind the rear wheels? i thought this is what it was going to look like....


Pranav

pgj
pgj
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Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:39 pm

Re: 2009 design concepts

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There is an assumption that removing sidepod furniture will result in aerodynamically simpler cars. With advances made in modelling and design as well as improved and advanced construction techniques, there is the possibility that cars will be more sculpted. Along the lines of the the McLaren wings that were introduced recently. Within technical dimensions, there is the prospect of some very exotic designs.
Williams and proud of it.

wesley123
wesley123
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Re: 2009 design concepts

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pgj wrote:There is an assumption that removing sidepod furniture will result in aerodynamically simpler cars. With advances made in modelling and design as well as improved and advanced construction techniques, there is the possibility that cars will be more sculpted. Along the lines of the the McLaren wings that were introduced recently. Within technical dimensions, there is the prospect of some very exotic designs.
I havent even thought aboutt hat. My idea was that teams will try to let alot of air flow to the diffuser, as the diffusers dimmensins became higher i believe.
But i dont like the idea, cars without chimneys on the sidepod that becomes ugly. Althouhg the cars will generate less downforce the ideas will leave a door open for new concepts. When the aero rules came like we have now the cars had a loss of downforce compared to 2003 but now the levels are the same as in 2003. It will take 6 years till the cars are back on the levels of now.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:44 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: 2009 design concepts

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I reckon the 2009 regs will bring new developmets that are not visible for fans, which is bad. In early 00-s you could tell how good a car's aero was by simply looking at it. Remember that? :( Back then they could gain a couple of tenths by introducing a new front wing, now they will gain 0.001s by introducing a new low drag wax. #-o

duckrutt
duckrutt
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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: 2009 design concepts

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donskar wrote:Would someone with more time (and ability!) than me please post pictures of the 1978 Arrows A1 and 1979 Arrows A2?

I believe both suggest possible looks for next year's F1 cars.

I think they'd be interesting.
Better late than never :)

http://www.racingsportscars.com/f1/1978 ... 27-035.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/f1/1979 ... 08-030.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/f1/1979 ... 4f-029.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/f1/1979 ... 07-029.jpg

I'm not sure how happy they will be with me for linking the images like this so I'll toss this out as well

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo_f1.html

Duck

Ogami musashi
Ogami musashi
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:57 pm

Re: 2009 design concepts

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pgj wrote:There is an assumption that removing sidepod furniture will result in aerodynamically simpler cars. With advances made in modelling and design as well as improved and advanced construction techniques, there is the possibility that cars will be more sculpted. Along the lines of the the McLaren wings that were introduced recently. Within technical dimensions, there is the prospect of some very exotic designs.
The problem is that the "continuous tangent curve" prevent that.

The 2009 sidepods rule are nothing more that an even more restricted version of the 2008 ones.

So maybe developments will head this way but i wouldn't expect exotic designs at all.

2009 regs for bodywork is very restrictive including for the wings.

rjsa
rjsa
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:01 am

Re: 2009 design concepts

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I have been working on this model for some days, but I stuck with the 500mm center wing, the wing supports & the moveable part. Any oppinions on how it will be implemented?

Image

Image

My take is that teams are to try the only and last flipup, respecting the 75mm rule.

After ready this will be painted in rosso :wink:

TIA for any suggetstions,

rjsa

Saribro
Saribro
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Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: 2009 design concepts

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That's damn sexy.

johnbeamer
johnbeamer
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:53 am

Re: 2009 design concepts

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That looks like a good stab at how the car will look - there will be limited bargeboards and vortex generators around (part of) the lower bargeboard area, I believe