2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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dren
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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charliesmithhd wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:24 pm
What do we think this fundemtal issue is? We’ve talked about gearbox ratios, but surely it is a chassis/ aero problem restricting rear downforce
Hard to say, but it likely is aero related. They had the one large nose update and then kept a rather basic looking car the rest of the year. My guess is it has to do with the sidepod shape, which would require a large internal rearranging of components to change, which is why they didn't further develop a B-spec car. They were the only team to run the VGs on the top of the pods all year; Mercedes ran them once at Monaco, where aero drag isn't much of an issue. That, along with aero changes at the front for next year probably drove them to abandon this year's car for 2019 development.
Honda!

M840TR
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Pirelli tyre test report:

136 laps/755km
6th fastest lap @ 1:38.187s (+1.375 Vettel, +0.444 Alonso Q2)

Image

Norris:

“I think this was the most laps I’ve ever done in a day, so it was good. I got through a lot of the things I needed to, such as longer runs – which I haven’t done much of so far – so considering all that, I don’t feel too bad. I haven’t really felt the degradation of the tyres before, so that was one of the biggest things I wanted to get through.

I’ll have a bit more experience for next year now, of tyre drop-off and things like that. I also wanted to put a few other things together, such as practice starts and giving feedback.

“It did feel a bit different today, realising that a lot of the stuff we did was for my own good and things that will really benefit me a lot next year. I’m now trying to get everything based around me rather than the other drivers like in the past as Test Driver, so it definitely did feel a bit different. I really wanted to focus on trying to make it the best I could for me, so it was useful.”

https://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2018/a ... est-day-1/

Sainz in Mclaren gear. He'll be testing the Mcl33 tomorrow.

Image
via Albert Fabrega

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McG
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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If McLaren show significant improvement next season then it was worth it to stop development so early this year.

This year has shown it was worth dumping Honda who are still struggling and will continue to struggle.

6th in the standings with a seriously underdeveloped chassis isn't as bad as previous years. Stopping development early and allowing attention to be shifted to 2019 very early could be a great move.

Hoping Norris and Sainz are a lot better than Vandoorne.
Honda, the power of giving up.

bill shoe
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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dren wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:28 pm
charliesmithhd wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:24 pm
What do we think this fundemtal issue is? We’ve talked about gearbox ratios, but surely it is a chassis/ aero problem restricting rear downforce
Hard to say, but it likely is aero related.
Alonso kept saying throughout the year the car felt OK, and it was just not fast enough. Seems clear the car had too much drag which would be consistent with Alonso perspective.

Not clear if "too much drag" is the fundamental problem mentioned by McLaren. High drag would be understood early in the season, but maybe the cause of the high drag was not understood until after summer?

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Jackles-UK
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Norris in the tyre test today was 0.4s faster than Vandoorne was in Qualifying on Saturday. Admittedly it is difficult to draw a direct comparison due to being on the 2019 version of the Hypersoft tyres but still, pretty impressive all things considered.

I personally don’t think it’s one single thing that has hampered the MCL33, more a collection of interlinked problems. The car was generally pretty reliable and pretty good to its tyres which made the car look far better in race trim than it did in qualifying but it had obvious shortfalls in a few key areas. Packaging, aero efficiency & traction will all need improving but they’ll also be hoping that Renault can pull a rabbit out of the hat with their Spec-C engine.

M840TR
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Jackles-UK wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:04 pm
Norris in the tyre test today was 0.4s faster than Vandoorne was in Qualifying on Saturday. Admittedly it is difficult to draw a direct comparison due to being on the 2019 version of the Hypersoft tyres but still, pretty impressive all things considered.

I personally don’t think it’s one single thing that has hampered the MCL33, more a collection of interlinked problems. The car was generally pretty reliable and pretty good to its tyres which made the car look far better in race trim than it did in qualifying but it had obvious shortfalls in a few key areas. Packaging, aero efficiency & traction will all need improving but they’ll also be hoping that Renault can pull a rabbit out of the hat with their Spec-C engine.
Spot on there. Renault are usually overshadowed in discussions pertaining to Mclaren, though somewhat justifiably, they're still responsible for at least 0.5 sec deficit on most tracks.

Edax
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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M840TR wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:11 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:15 pm
M840TR wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:41 pm


Also says they could've done a B-car if they had realized the issues around April; they didn't until after summer break. Would've loved to see that.
I do not understand why they did not churn out a B-C-d E-and even F spec this year.

Auctioning the car Alonso last drove in F1 would at minimum recover the cost, and probably even make them a nice pile. They had to have a stack of un numbered spares such as nose, suspension etc, so they could make up several 'genuine Alonso' cars and a hand full of close copies still the right car and year even if they were not Alonso's car
It got too late in the season. Would've compromised 2019 greatly.
I really hope McLaren recovers, but I have a real unconfortable feeling about it.

I would never choose not to try to fix the issue this year.

You don’t know whether you fixed an issue until you fixed it, no matter how warm and fuzzy the modeling is making you feel.

And even if fixing an issue takes to much time. Understanding an issue always opens up compromises; containments or patches that may give you 50% of a complete fix, against 20% of the effort. And when a containment works you also can have some confidence in the solution.

If they are really going blindly into next year with an unproven fix it is a huge risk. They designed the original chassis wrong, then they designed an aero update that was supposed to fix the issue but didn’t. If I would be them I would try to seek track verification of the solution direction ASAP.

Even if it means compromising next years development. Because they don’t have the luxury of getting it wrong a third time.

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subcritical71
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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McG wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:44 pm
If McLaren show significant improvement next season then it was worth it to stop development so early this year.
This has been my thought throughout the year also. For all the negativity regarding dumping Honda, Alonso went from 15th to 11th in the WDC, and McLaren went from 9th to 6th in the WCC. Substatial progress was made in a throwaway year.

Honda are 9th with their best driver finishing 15th.... same as McLaren last year, what is the common denominator??

I’m cautiously optimistic for McLaren next year.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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subcritical71 wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:16 pm
McG wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:44 pm
If McLaren show significant improvement next season then it was worth it to stop development so early this year.
This has been my thought throughout the year also. For all the negativity regarding dumping Honda, Alonso went from 15th to 11th in the WDC, and McLaren went from 9th to 6th in the WCC. Substatial progress was made in a throwaway year.

Honda are 9th with their best driver finishing 15th.... same as McLaren last year, what is the common denominator??

I’m cautiously optimistic for McLaren next year.
They seem to have a discrepancy between the model and the car when it hits the track. The model for next year many be a championship winner, but until they run the car we will not know. At least if they had modeled another car this year then run it they would know if they are on track to improve. Now they will not know until it is almost time to race again
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

marmer
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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subcritical71 wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:16 pm
McG wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:44 pm
If McLaren show significant improvement next season then it was worth it to stop development so early this year.
This has been my thought throughout the year also. For all the negativity regarding dumping Honda, Alonso went from 15th to 11th in the WDC, and McLaren went from 9th to 6th in the WCC. Substatial progress was made in a throwaway year.

Honda are 9th with their best driver finishing 15th.... same as McLaren last year, what is the common denominator??

I’m cautiously optimistic for McLaren next year.
Could argue that honda keeping the same position as last year yet dropping into team with less development practically none for most of the year and two less experienced drivers is actually a good result

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Alonso Fan
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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A little something I cooked up

MVRC - SHM Racing

Mansell89
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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So we’ve got a combination of Pat Fry and Andrea Stella who lead the design of the 2019 car. This will be a fascinating process. Zak Brown says this is a reduction from 3 people to now just 2 being ultimately held accountable.
I think we're in a pretty good place now," Brown said, confirming the Fry appointment on Tuesday. "We still need to kind of populate, i.e. James' start, but Andrea Stella is leading all performance, setting the targets, and it's for Pat as engineering director to execute, so it will ultimately be led by Andrea with Pat, the development of next year's car.

"And then of course there's lots of people that feed into that. Pete Prodromou from an aero, Mark Ingham and Neil Oatley from design, Simon Roberts the COO ultimately responsible for bringing everything together and Gil on the sporting side but at the end of the day it's Andrea and Pat who are going to drive next year's car."]


Just flicking through Pat Fry’s last McLaren stint, he led design on the 2005, 2007 and 2009 cars. Whilst not always nailing it out of the box, all cars unlocked significant performance so it will be intriguing to see what direction they go in with James Key set to give his input on the 2020 car.

I think the new aero regs for next year represent a good opportunity for Fry to set McLaren on a better path- we hope.

Ground Effect
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Edax wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:13 pm
M840TR wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:11 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:15 pm


I do not understand why they did not churn out a B-C-d E-and even F spec this year.

Auctioning the car Alonso last drove in F1 would at minimum recover the cost, and probably even make them a nice pile. They had to have a stack of un numbered spares such as nose, suspension etc, so they could make up several 'genuine Alonso' cars and a hand full of close copies still the right car and year even if they were not Alonso's car
It got too late in the season. Would've compromised 2019 greatly.
I really hope McLaren recovers, but I have a real unconfortable feeling about it.

I would never choose not to try to fix the issue this year.

You don’t know whether you fixed an issue until you fixed it, no matter how warm and fuzzy the modeling is making you feel.

And even if fixing an issue takes to much time. Understanding an issue always opens up compromises; containments or patches that may give you 50% of a complete fix, against 20% of the effort. And when a containment works you also can have some confidence in the solution.

If they are really going blindly into next year with an unproven fix it is a huge risk. They designed the original chassis wrong, then they designed an aero update that was supposed to fix the issue but didn’t. If I would be them I would try to seek track verification of the solution direction ASAP.

Even if it means compromising next years development. Because they don’t have the luxury of getting it wrong a third time.
Switching early and sacrificing current year is nothing new to F1. Ferrari did it in 2009, as did Renault. It may not be the Mclaren's way as we know, but a lot has changed. From the statement from the chairman, the problem and the fix were discovered a bit late, which means that while they may have been able to salvage the last few races of 2018, they would have been compromised for 2019, don't forget there's a mini rules revamp next year.
I don't think they're going blind into 2019, a lot of the FP sessions in the second half of the season was focused on next year, so let's not panic just yet.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

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Morteza
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

f1rules
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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yeah thats a really good question
1. they seem always to suffer more in qual, why is that, because of renaults lack of engine map
2. In mexico where drag plays less of a role because of the thin air the car was reasonable in the race but again lacked in qual
Imo its a mix of things. Bad/rushed integration, draggy car, Wrong gearing, and maybe the updated suspension rules hurt mclaren. Interesting that alonso mentioned, that it was something they expected to bring an advantage, but didnt and then only the negatives. Could be the small air intake and radiator layout which they stubbornly continued to persue. They would only do so if expecting a gain. And then offcourse they completely missed the lower crash structure trick that ferrari started and rb took to extremes.

charliesmithhd wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:24 pm
What do we think this fundemtal issue is? We’ve talked about gearbox ratios, but surely it is a chassis/ aero problem restricting rear downforce