Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:55 am

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:04 am
Prechamber or not, flame out would happen somewhere around 1.6, so for gasoline that would be a practical limit....
would conventional ignition allow F1 to run at 1.6 lambda ?
afaik we know Honda has road engines on road fuel that (with PI and preheat) run homogeneously at 2 lambda
and F1 fuel is presumably optimised for combustion qualities

don't people think that TJI-type combustion allows leaner combustion ?
or do they think it is only used for faster initiation of combustion ?

design cooling capacity surely means F1 can sustainably run sub-optimal leanness only with lower MAP than is available
yes I have suggested that briefly running less lean at max fuel rate is intended and used
given that high MAPs/exhaust pressures don't yield greater turbine recovery

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:08 pm

Bandit1216 wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:09 am
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:09 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:05 am


That is actually a VERY interesting concept... :idea:
In F1 the valves take up most of the top of the combustion chamber so those channels cannot exist internally. If you have a channel on the surface though.. that might work.. you can have shaped valves but they cannot be allowed to rotate. Not to mention it is more weight.. but interesting idea. Surface friction will also slow the jets.
Poppet valves rotate. It's a design feature, it's a good way to keep valve seats concentric and sealing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFbfHF9gzTY
Wouldn't that only work when you use both? I mean from the side walls to the middle is 1/2 of the bore. From the middle to the side is also 1/2 of the bore.
4 valve engines do the same thing.
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:16 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:55 am
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:04 am
Prechamber or not, flame out would happen somewhere around 1.6, so for gasoline that would be a practical limit....
would conventional ignition allow F1 to run at 1.6 lambda ?
afaik we know Honda has road engines on road fuel that (with PI and preheat) run homogeneously at 2 lambda
and F1 fuel is presumably optimised for combustion qualities

don't people think that TJI-type combustion allows leaner combustion ?
or do they think it is only used for faster initiation of combustion ?

design cooling capacity surely means F1 can sustainably run sub-optimal leanness only with lower MAP than is available
yes I have suggested that briefly running less lean at max fuel rate is intended and used
given that high MAPs/exhaust pressures don't yield greater turbine recovery
I haven't seen any gasoline engine from Honda run at 2.0 under load. Then again I'm only familiar with B F H and K series.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:03 am

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:04 am
Prechamber or not, flame out would happen somewhere around 1.6, so for gasoline that would be a practical limit....
With TJI the practical limit and peak efficiency is about 2.0 These engines are operating way above 1.6

Don't forget the prechamber is operating around 1.0
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saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:54 am

An ICE combustion chamber system whatever make or name given that make use of a pre-chamber no matter the fuel used, the first part of combustion is started in the pre-chamber, in the case of spark ignition combustion in pre-chamber is ignited by spark, what comes out of pre-chamber into second/main chamber to ignite the second/main chamber charge is a flame or flames which are the result of the first combustion and not a spark.
If the present F1 turbo ICE is still making use of Pneumatic valve return system I do not think the valves rotates.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:24 pm

gruntguru wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:03 am
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:04 am
Prechamber or not, flame out would happen somewhere around 1.6, so for gasoline that would be a practical limit....
With TJI the practical limit and peak efficiency is about 2.0 These engines are operating way above 1.6

Don't forget the prechamber is operating around 1.0
You may be right and I don't really know, I think it's a little optimistic that they operate in that range during the race. We know they're making in the region of 850hp in race trim with a ~5,000rpm usable power band(7,500-12,500). Assuming they're at full throttle 65% of the time, the fuel consumption allowed, and how it's tied to RPM. I'd say having AFR vary from 1.2 - 1.6 is probably realistic, 2.0 would be a stretch, for gasoline anyway.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by HPD » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:53 pm

The secret Honda Hybrid test

In our earlier version of Technical Analysis of the RA619H, which Red Bull Racing will use in 2019, we could report that Honda has gone another route with the construction of its engine. For example, during the last three seasons in the MGU-H system, almost 1.3 mega joules per round of electricity were won. In collaboration with Brembo, the ability of the MGU-K has also been boosted. These independent items, which fall within the current power units, can be tested on street cars. Honda has a supercar in its arsenal, called the NSX and seems to have tested these systems last month on their own circuit, Suzuka. Honda tested the MGU-K and MGU-H from 2019 in a prototype NSX. This NSX was equipped with a current configuration engine, the 3.5L twin turbo V6. This has been brought to the level by engine control that gives the current RA918H engine performance. The temperatures of this 3.5 L V6 have been brought to the same level by Honda as the engine that is now in the Toro Rosso. With this configuration, Honda has done a test at Suzuka to see how much energy one could generate with the new MGU-K and MGU H systems. This NSX drove around 100 laps a day for three days on the Suzuka circuit, and the Units, the MGU-H and MGU-K generated more mega joules than initially intended. Indeed, this test confirmed that the hybrid systems of the Honda have a profit percentage compared to the current engine of nearly 6.5%. To make a calculation. With every 100 HP that these systems can deliver, Honda has already gained 6.5 extra for the 2019 version by optimizing these systems. In theory we talk about a higher percentage of profit, since this NSX V6 has a double turbo. Could this be a reason for Honda to share their turbo, like Mercedes, in the same way?

The effect on the dyno

Toyohiro Tanabe, F1 Technical Director at Honda, says the following: "Motor tests carried out on a car can not be carried out with FIA rules, at least not in the current configuration, but tests on test benches are possible. dyno in Milton Keynes so that it can be rotated with the gearbox There are already several tests, including a test with the bodywork including the gearbox We have the advantage that our facility in Milton Keynes is not far away from the Red Bull factory . " A very interesting note from Tanabe. The three dynos that Honda has were described by former McLaren Engineer Mark Priestley as Milton Keynes, Sakura and Austria. Further investigation has shown that it is not in Austria, but in Faenza at Toro Rosso. Honda has three independent teams that test the RA619H on the dynos. These tests are necessary to test the reliability, stability and operation with the gearbox. Tanabe's remark that the gearbox, engine and chassis have already become acquainted with each other concerns here in all probability an RB14 from the beginning of the year. This could be a car that could no longer be used. By this we mean the car with which Max Verstappen hit the wall in Monaco. Verstappen got a new car for the Sunday.

Honda, the Super Formula car

At the end of this year the current configuration of the Super Formula car, the Dallara SF14, disappears. This car is almost identical to the current Formula 1 car in terms of length, width and wheelbase. We are talking about a margin of a few inches here. The gossip that Honda wanted to test its power unit on a Super Formula car in Suzuka in 2015 was confirmed in that year by the project manager of Honda at the time, Yasuhisa Arai. Also the team with which this test would be carried out, Team Mugen, had already released a chassis and converted it to install the Honda RA615H. This modified chassis with associated parts is still at the factory at Team Mugen.

In Japan, the rumors have been rekindled about a test with Honda and this Super Formula car. Since this car, the Dallara SF14, is no longer competitive in its current form, because it will be replaced by the SF19, Honda suddenly has access to a chassis that is approved by the FIA ​​and according to the regulations can be used as test vehicle. The product that Honda wants to set up here, the RA619H, has not yet officially participated in a Grand Prix. A 'loophole' in the regulations.

https://www.f1today.net/nl/nieuws/f1/24 ... motor-test

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:53 pm

I guess I'm confused why they would test their hybrid system on an NSX unless they intend to sell a Type-R NSX with an F1 style turbo-compound system. It'd be better to test the hybrid system on an actual Honda PU on the dyno for improved hybrid function.
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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wouter » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:55 pm

HPD wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:53 pm
The secret Honda Hybrid test

In our earlier version of Technical Analysis of the RA619H, which Red Bull Racing will use in 2019, we could report that Honda has gone another route with the construction of its engine.

...........

In Japan, the rumors have been rekindled about a test with Honda and this Super Formula car. Since this car, the Dallara SF14, is no longer competitive in its current form, because it will be replaced by the SF19, Honda suddenly has access to a chassis that is approved by the FIA ​​and according to the regulations can be used as test vehicle. The product that Honda wants to set up here, the RA619H, has not yet officially participated in a Grand Prix. A 'loophole' in the regulations.

https://www.f1today.net/nl/nieuws/f1/24 ... motor-test
Just a small addition to this article.
It is not written by an F1 expert or a journalist, etc, but by a fan of motorsport in general. He occasionally writes a piece for that site and does research on the www to write an article. The question is how reliable such an article is.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:50 pm

I posted the NSX bits on another site to see if anyone is aware of it. There is an NSX Type-R in the works (rumored, and likely given Honda's past) so I am thinking it might have more to do with its development. Also, 850hp running reliably on the NSX engine seems high to me unless it's a different engine entirely.
Honda!

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:32 am

Should be possible to do a like for like test of the 2018 vs 2019 MGUH and MGUK on a NSX. I see no issues there. 6.5% increase in harvesting is a considerable amount.

They could litterally strap on a Honda F1 turbocharger on the back of the NSX 3.5 liter V6 to sort of simulate the turbo dynamics. Getting 850 horsepower from 3 liters and 11k rpm shouldn't be so hard for them. Then again it a fanciful story that may not be true! haha :mrgreen:
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Bandit1216
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bandit1216 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:09 am

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:08 pm
Bandit1216 wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:09 am
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:09 am


Poppet valves rotate. It's a design feature, it's a good way to keep valve seats concentric and sealing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFbfHF9gzTY
Wouldn't that only work when you use both? I mean from the side walls to the middle is 1/2 of the bore. From the middle to the side is also 1/2 of the bore.
4 valve engines do the same thing.
Sorry, my comment was more related to "jetting" flames from the side wals in staid of from a more or less central point.

Bandit1216
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bandit1216 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:14 am

HPD wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:53 pm
The secret Honda Hybrid test

In our earlier version of Technical Analysis of the RA619H, which Red Bull Racing will use in 2019, we could report that Honda has gone another route with the construction of its engine. For example, during the last three seasons in the MGU-H system, almost 1.3 mega joules per round of electricity were won. In collaboration with Brembo, the ability of the MGU-K has also been boosted. These independent items, which fall within the current power units, can be tested on street cars. Honda has a supercar in its arsenal, called the NSX and seems to have tested these systems last month on their own circuit, Suzuka. Honda tested the MGU-K and MGU-H from 2019 in a prototype NSX. This NSX was equipped with a current configuration engine, the 3.5L twin turbo V6. This has been brought to the level by engine control that gives the current RA918H engine performance. The temperatures of this 3.5 L V6 have been brought to the same level by Honda as the engine that is now in the Toro Rosso. With this configuration, Honda has done a test at Suzuka to see how much energy one could generate with the new MGU-K and MGU H systems. This NSX drove around 100 laps a day for three days on the Suzuka circuit, and the Units, the MGU-H and MGU-K generated more mega joules than initially intended. Indeed, this test confirmed that the hybrid systems of the Honda have a profit percentage compared to the current engine of nearly 6.5%. To make a calculation. With every 100 HP that these systems can deliver, Honda has already gained 6.5 extra for the 2019 version by optimizing these systems. In theory we talk about a higher percentage of profit, since this NSX V6 has a double turbo. Could this be a reason for Honda to share their turbo, like Mercedes, in the same way?

The effect on the dyno

Toyohiro Tanabe, F1 Technical Director at Honda, says the following: "Motor tests carried out on a car can not be carried out with FIA rules, at least not in the current configuration, but tests on test benches are possible. dyno in Milton Keynes so that it can be rotated with the gearbox There are already several tests, including a test with the bodywork including the gearbox We have the advantage that our facility in Milton Keynes is not far away from the Red Bull factory . " A very interesting note from Tanabe. The three dynos that Honda has were described by former McLaren Engineer Mark Priestley as Milton Keynes, Sakura and Austria. Further investigation has shown that it is not in Austria, but in Faenza at Toro Rosso. Honda has three independent teams that test the RA619H on the dynos. These tests are necessary to test the reliability, stability and operation with the gearbox. Tanabe's remark that the gearbox, engine and chassis have already become acquainted with each other concerns here in all probability an RB14 from the beginning of the year. This could be a car that could no longer be used. By this we mean the car with which Max Verstappen hit the wall in Monaco. Verstappen got a new car for the Sunday.

Honda, the Super Formula car

At the end of this year the current configuration of the Super Formula car, the Dallara SF14, disappears. This car is almost identical to the current Formula 1 car in terms of length, width and wheelbase. We are talking about a margin of a few inches here. The gossip that Honda wanted to test its power unit on a Super Formula car in Suzuka in 2015 was confirmed in that year by the project manager of Honda at the time, Yasuhisa Arai. Also the team with which this test would be carried out, Team Mugen, had already released a chassis and converted it to install the Honda RA615H. This modified chassis with associated parts is still at the factory at Team Mugen.

In Japan, the rumors have been rekindled about a test with Honda and this Super Formula car. Since this car, the Dallara SF14, is no longer competitive in its current form, because it will be replaced by the SF19, Honda suddenly has access to a chassis that is approved by the FIA ​​and according to the regulations can be used as test vehicle. The product that Honda wants to set up here, the RA619H, has not yet officially participated in a Grand Prix. A 'loophole' in the regulations.

https://www.f1today.net/nl/nieuws/f1/24 ... motor-test
Is 1.3 megajoules good compared to Ferrari and Merc? That would mean they can put max 3.3 Mj to the mguk, right. I assume both Ferrari and Mercedes already do the full 4 Mj.

henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:27 am

Bandit1216 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:14 am

Is 1.3 megajoules good compared to Ferrari and Merc? That would mean they can put max 3.3 Mj to the mguk, right. I assume both Ferrari and Mercedes already do the full 4 Mj.
A couple of points.

Firstly the MGU-H output can go directly to the MGU-K. The 4 MJ limit is from the ES to the MGU-K so you can’t add 1.3 to 2 to establish what is going down the regulated path.

Secondly the 1.3 MJ figure would be about 20kW output from the MGU-H, I think that the MGU-H output for Ferrari/Mercedes is more like 60kW, maybe up to 80. The translator has said “won” when I think they meant “gained”. So Honda are making perhaps 20kW more now than when they started.
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Bandit1216
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bandit1216 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:43 am

henry wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:27 am
Bandit1216 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:14 am

Is 1.3 megajoules good compared to Ferrari and Merc? That would mean they can put max 3.3 Mj to the mguk, right. I assume both Ferrari and Mercedes already do the full 4 Mj.
A couple of points.

Firstly the MGU-H output can go directly to the MGU-K. The 4 MJ limit is from the ES to the MGU-K so you can’t add 1.3 to 2 to establish what is going down the regulated path.

Secondly the 1.3 MJ figure would be about 20kW output from the MGU-H, I think that the MGU-H output for Ferrari/Mercedes is more like 60kW, maybe up to 80. The translator has said “won” when I think they meant “gained”. So Honda are making perhaps 20kW more now than when they started.
Aha. I should have known that before asking this :oops: