Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
ian_s
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ian_s » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:41 pm

dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:06 pm
If it's a comparison between the two packages on the same ICE, then I could see some benefit. It still seems like a lot of extra work when you could just have done it on the dyno.
I wonder what sort of sideways G forces the NSX could generate.
Running components on a track will almost certainly give Honda an insight as to how reliable they will be, and using them on a car that can run endlessly must also be a bonus.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 pm

They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
Honda!

Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Big Tea » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:28 pm

dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 pm
They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
I think they still smart from the vibrations problem they missed until it was fitted into the car.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:34 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:28 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 pm
They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
I think they still smart from the vibrations problem they missed until it was fitted into the car.
That'd require them to shoehorn in the entire PU drivetrain, with a Red Bull rear into an NSX with F1 wheels and tires, not just "slap" the MGUH onto an NSX turbine(s).
Honda!

Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Big Tea » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:40 pm

dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:34 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:28 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 pm
They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
I think they still smart from the vibrations problem they missed until it was fitted into the car.
That'd require them to shoehorn in the entire PU drivetrain, with a Red Bull rear into an NSX with F1 wheels and tires, not just "slap" the MGUH onto an NSX turbine(s).
I think they wil clutch at ant straws in reach. Even if it does no good it probably makes them feel better :mrgreen:

No knowledge is wasted.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:27 am

dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:34 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:28 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 pm
They can simulate a race weekend at any track on a dyno.
I think they still smart from the vibrations problem they missed until it was fitted into the car.
That'd require them to shoehorn in the entire PU drivetrain, with a Red Bull rear into an NSX with F1 wheels and tires, not just "slap" the MGUH onto an NSX turbine(s).
They can use a non-homologated engine if they like, and slap a RedBull drive train on there...
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Bandit1216
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bandit1216 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:00 am

ian_s wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:41 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:06 pm
If it's a comparison between the two packages on the same ICE, then I could see some benefit. It still seems like a lot of extra work when you could just have done it on the dyno.
I wonder what sort of sideways G forces the NSX could generate.
Running components on a track will almost certainly give Honda an insight as to how reliable they will be, and using them on a car that can run endlessly must also be a bonus.
Will surely not even be close. I was calculating a bit with some co workers the other day. Rubber to asphalt
friction coefficient is about 1 according to the net. It might be somewhere near 1.3 with a lot of rubber on the track?? Even if you assume 1,5 coefficient and 1,5 down force to weight ratio on the NSX, which are both high assumptions IMO, they can get to 2,25 G. Not even close to F1.

I think G-force is the one thing quite different on track vs dyno though.

ian_s
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Location: Medway Towns

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ian_s » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:19 pm

Bandit1216 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:00 am
ian_s wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:41 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:06 pm
If it's a comparison between the two packages on the same ICE, then I could see some benefit. It still seems like a lot of extra work when you could just have done it on the dyno.
I wonder what sort of sideways G forces the NSX could generate.
Running components on a track will almost certainly give Honda an insight as to how reliable they will be, and using them on a car that can run endlessly must also be a bonus.
Will surely not even be close. I was calculating a bit with some co workers the other day. Rubber to asphalt
friction coefficient is about 1 according to the net. It might be somewhere near 1.3 with a lot of rubber on the track?? Even if you assume 1,5 coefficient and 1,5 down force to weight ratio on the NSX, which are both high assumptions IMO, they can get to 2,25 G. Not even close to F1.

I think G-force is the one thing quite different on track vs dyno though.
2G would still give better info than the maximum 1G on a dyno

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Craigy » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:28 pm

ian_s wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:19 pm
Bandit1216 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:00 am
ian_s wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:41 pm

I wonder what sort of sideways G forces the NSX could generate.
Running components on a track will almost certainly give Honda an insight as to how reliable they will be, and using them on a car that can run endlessly must also be a bonus.
Will surely not even be close. I was calculating a bit with some co workers the other day. Rubber to asphalt
friction coefficient is about 1 according to the net. It might be somewhere near 1.3 with a lot of rubber on the track?? Even if you assume 1,5 coefficient and 1,5 down force to weight ratio on the NSX, which are both high assumptions IMO, they can get to 2,25 G. Not even close to F1.

I think G-force is the one thing quite different on track vs dyno though.
2G would still give better info than the maximum 1G on a dyno
We've been around this discussion before. There are dynoes that can give more than 1G on a gimbal.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:19 pm

Hard to do it sustained, nevertheless point taken. Would G forces still be a concern? I'm sure the baffling on the oil tank isn't an issue any more. The engine mated to the rear end, and the torsional forces involved, and how they affect the resonance of the transmission shafts on the crank, and the rest of the ICE is probably a bigger priority. I think they realized this while working together this year(Honda/Red Bull), so all of this has already been taken into account. They now have 3 different factories with dynos all running trying different things. They also have a works partnership with a large petrochemical company to help things along, something they didn't have with McLaren.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by GhostF1 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:12 pm

Craigy wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:28 pm
ian_s wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:19 pm
Bandit1216 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:00 am


Will surely not even be close. I was calculating a bit with some co workers the other day. Rubber to asphalt
friction coefficient is about 1 according to the net. It might be somewhere near 1.3 with a lot of rubber on the track?? Even if you assume 1,5 coefficient and 1,5 down force to weight ratio on the NSX, which are both high assumptions IMO, they can get to 2,25 G. Not even close to F1.

I think G-force is the one thing quite different on track vs dyno though.
2G would still give better info than the maximum 1G on a dyno
We've been around this discussion before. There are dynoes that can give more than 1G on a gimbal.
What has also been discussed at length is sustained G forces. It is extremely difficult to properly simulate accurate sustained G forces on a dyno, most processes involve heavy use of computer estimations from sim programs to fill in the gaps.
This was talked about at length when Honda discovered issues with their 2017 oil tank design on the track that were not seen on the dyno which was followed by a lengthy discussion about computer simulation and replicating accurate fluid slosh dynamics and the challenges involved with that..

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:35 pm

Dynos that simulate cornering only tilt the engine so they are simulating not the g forces but the ANGLE resulting from cornering forces. 1g cornering (plus 1g gravity) results in a 45* angle and a magnitude of 1.41g. The tilting dyno can replicate the 45* angle but the magnitude is still 1g (gravity). It probably doesn't matter much - the higher force only affects things like internal stresses, moving parts in the engine and flow involving mixtures with different densities (eg bubbles). The angle matters a lot because pickups that should be submerged can suddenly be sucking air and vice versa. Under 4g cornering the angle of fluid in a reservoir will be about 76* to the horizontal - almost vertical!!!
je suis charlie

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by GhostF1 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:57 pm

Just linking another Abiteboul stab that lacks any technical fact. Basically insinuating that because TR finished behind Renault, the Honda PU is obviously worse :lol:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-r ... ing-honda/

“Red Bull never tire of telling how good Honda is compared to us.

“May I state that Toro Rosso is still behind us?”


This guy is amazing.

Bandit1216
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bandit1216 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:01 am

GhostF1 wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:57 pm
Just linking another Abiteboul stab that lacks any technical fact. Basically insinuating that because TR finished behind Renault, the Honda PU is obviously worse :lol:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-r ... ing-honda/

“Red Bull never tire of telling how good Honda is compared to us.

“May I state that Toro Rosso is still behind us?”


This guy is amazing.
He's stupid. RB is 2 secs faster than Williams. So is the renault better than the Merc then? How can you be so stupid and still be in F1.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:12 pm

Toro rosso is the fastest Honda chassis so he is well within reason!
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne