2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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subcritical71
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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You and I both, but that's ok one day one of those ideas will actually be good! :P

wuzak
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Big Tea wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:58 am
What would be the pro/con and practicality of using a constant speed with the surplus bled off, possibly to cooling?
A heavier unit could be used as it would not have rapid acceleration/deceleration. I know it would be a no go with an exhaust only unit, but if it was topped up with battery power would it still cost to much in energy terms to cover lag?
Another con is that the compressed air is quite hot.

mzso
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Hi!

I'm wondering, is it legal (or possible because of lack of monitoring) to cool the fuel as it's pumped through the flow measurement device to make it denser to achieve more power.
I know the fuel in the tank can't be colder than 10 degrees below ambient. (not that it would matter much without refueling.)

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godlameroso
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Would it be worth it? These engines go for efficiency and hot gasoline burns better.
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Tzk
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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You would cool the gasoline before passing the flowmeter and heat it afterwards. This way you can inject more fuel than the rules allow.

I dont think its worth the effort though.

gruntguru
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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It would be worth the effort but is not possible. The flowmeter measures mass flow.
Last edited by gruntguru on Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mzso
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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gruntguru wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:05 am
It would be worth the effort but is not possible. The flowmeter measures mass flow.
Is that even possible? How would it measure mass in a shaking car with high g-forces?

With some searching I only see references to volume or flow rate, but not mass.
Edit:
Though the homologated flow meter, does seem to have temperature sensors. I guess this settles it.

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aleks_ader
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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gruntguru wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:05 am
It would be worth the effort but is not possible. The flowmeter measures mass flow.

I must admit first i thought you are wrong but..
5. Monitors multiple parameters. Unlike other sensor types, ultrasonic technology can measure
transient and steady flow, flow direction, temperature, speed of sound and cumulative usage.

source; Factsheet-8-facts-about-ultrasonic-flow-measurement.pdf
I must say i was looking into datasheet on Gill sensor impressive tech.

They could easily made "corection" factor for speed of "sound" vs desity of fluid.

Image

Fia could made for ech fuel individual corerection curve as below..
Image
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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fuel flow rate measurements from the fuel cell don't mean everything

the fuel will increase in density by about 4% cycling up to permitted 500 bar pressure
ie we cannot assume that the overall engine fuel rate is always within 100 kg/hr
the FIA doesn't require it to be so
and the instantaneous fuel rate (rate within an injection pulse) will be much higher than this

flow measurement isn't easy - sampling the uneven velocities within a pipe and inferring mass flow from this
and a measuring instrument is only as good as its calibration allows
people might be surprised how low are standards based on the relationship of 100 kg mass to 100 kg force at the 21 venues
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

mzso
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:15 am
fuel flow rate measurements from the fuel cell don't mean everything

the fuel will increase in density by about 4% cycling up to permitted 500 bar pressure
ie we cannot assume that the overall engine fuel rate is within 100 kg/hr
the FIA doesn't require it to be so
and the instantaneous fuel rate (rate within an injection pulse) has no limit
Unless they can store a significant amount of fuel after the flow meter it doesn't mean much, you can't cycle up fuel that's not there. The limited flow through the meter restricts power. And the FIA took measures against it, so I guess they're keeping a close eye on this.

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AMG.Tzan
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/new- ... 1/4312979/

Wow what a huge move by F1...

Still can't understand why they don't follow MotoGP's lead in both Engine and Aero development? Let new manufacturers test and develop as much as they want to in the first 2 years isn't an option? just saying...

And maybe control and limit other's engine and aero development through the year by using a token system and limiting aero updates?

Not that sharing information is a bad thing...but let me guess who's gonna share what? No one maybe...?
"The only rule is there are no rules" - Aristotle Onassis

mzso
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:54 pm
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/new- ... 1/4312979/

Wow what a huge move by F1...

Still can't understand why they don't follow MotoGP's lead in both Engine and Aero development? Let new manufacturers test and develop as much as they want to in the first 2 years isn't an option? just saying...

And maybe control and limit other's engine and aero development through the year by using a token system and limiting aero updates?

Not that sharing information is a bad thing...but let me guess who's gonna share what? No one maybe...?
Gah. Pointless to have an engine formula this way.

So, Cosworth might join get support and parts from Ferrari and/or Mercedes and instantly bypass Reanult/Honda?

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Big Tea
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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So a handful of engineers leave Renault to set up their own new team, they get the knowledge from Mercedes Ferrari and Honda, then the team goes under and.... Ah, vacancies at Renault for all of us.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

saviour stivala
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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“A compromise was reached/we have found a compromise/there are regulations coming which would mean new entrants will get support from existing entrants. There will be components and technology which will have to be shared if it is requested by new entrants”. This was said in between confirming “The drawbridge has been pulled-up and the existing suppliers don’t want anyone else to come in”. An interview with official F1 website by a top F1 official, what better way to trumpet something out?. Can anybody seriously believe that a formula 1 manufacturer will share his technical development secrets with his competition?. (A man that have changed his job and opinion and now have authority over the same sort of people he was himself been before).

MarcJ
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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mzso wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:27 pm
Hi!

I'm wondering, is it legal (or possible because of lack of monitoring) to cool the fuel as it's pumped through the flow measurement device to make it denser to achieve more power.
I know the fuel in the tank can't be colder than 10 degrees below ambient. (not that it would matter much without refueling.)
You want it hot to accelerate the chemistry.