Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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subcritical71
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by subcritical71 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:27 pm

Brake Horse Power wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:43 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:00 pm
Brake Horse Power wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:24 pm
If it has 3.3 watthour per gram I think you have to recharge a bit sooner than in a decade..

Or does it provide 3.3 watt per gram?


If its the same one - "Nickel-63 has a half-life of 100 years and in this system produces 3,300 Milliwatt-Hours per gram"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W96gq2rEhk

(Edit, reformat caps)
So if you have used 3.300 milliwatt hours of energy the battery is end of life? Or is it rechargable? Sorry the movie is a bit long and boring.
It will supply 3.300 mW of power for every gram of Ni-63 that remains until there is no more. It's a constant output until depleted. Total power output will change however based on how many g of Ni-63 remain.

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Brake Horse Power » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:51 pm

Ah, mW vs mWh. One letter but big difference. :wink:

This makes more sense. I think the nucleair battery is hard to sell, but for mobile machinery it would be technically a great solution. Lightweight and no recharging, i'd love that. Just don't shortcut the thing or you will have a nuclear meltdown

Cold Fussion
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Cold Fussion » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:12 am

I would think the main problem with nuclear batteries is that it is a continuous power device rather than being a conventional battery, as well as the low power density. The energy density may be 10x that of conventional lithium ion batteries but averaging 3.3 Wh over 100 years gives you mW/kg power densities which is 10s of thousands of times lower than lithium ion batteries. Obviously power on day 1 is going to be a lot higher than after 100 years, but it is going to be difficult to design an EV battery that operates as a continuous power source with 1/1000th the power density of a lithium ion cell. These sort of batteries seem far more suitable to implantable devices or any other very low power continuous use device.

Edit: According to this report, the power density they achieved was 10μW/cm^3, which translates to 0.001047 W/kg or roughly 285000 times lower than a lithium ion cell.

loner
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by loner » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:45 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:50 pm
Then again, if we have all this spare power and indestructible material, in cities at least, it would be better to cover the roads with moving walkways. Pirrelli can make belts :D

3 tracks 3 mph apart 3mph, 6mph 9mph. step out for longer trips.
No traffic problems no parking problems no road closing incidents no pollution.
its not hydrogen fault that we lack exploiting and developing it...
You can’t expect a lot from someone who thinks coal is the future, but Donald Trump is pushing his lack of vision a step further by now going after electric vehicles.
https://electrek.co/2018/12/18/donald-t ... s-mistake/
It Tolls for Thee.

subcritical71
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by subcritical71 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:00 pm

Cold Fussion wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:12 am
I would think the main problem with nuclear batteries is that it is a continuous power device rather than being a conventional battery, as well as the low power density. The energy density may be 10x that of conventional lithium ion batteries but averaging 3.3 Wh over 100 years gives you mW/kg power densities which is 10s of thousands of times lower than lithium ion batteries. Obviously power on day 1 is going to be a lot higher than after 100 years, but it is going to be difficult to design an EV battery that operates as a continuous power source with 1/1000th the power density of a lithium ion cell. These sort of batteries seem far more suitable to implantable devices or any other very low power continuous use device.

Edit: According to this report, the power density they achieved was 10μW/cm^3, which translates to 0.001047 W/kg or roughly 285000 times lower than a lithium ion cell.
I believe you are correct. Although with that I now don't even think spacecraft would benefit from this. Its more on the level of pacemakers and trinkets...

Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:28 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:00 pm
Cold Fussion wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:12 am
I would think the main problem with nuclear batteries is that it is a continuous power device rather than being a conventional battery, as well as the low power density. The energy density may be 10x that of conventional lithium ion batteries but averaging 3.3 Wh over 100 years gives you mW/kg power densities which is 10s of thousands of times lower than lithium ion batteries. Obviously power on day 1 is going to be a lot higher than after 100 years, but it is going to be difficult to design an EV battery that operates as a continuous power source with 1/1000th the power density of a lithium ion cell. These sort of batteries seem far more suitable to implantable devices or any other very low power continuous use device.

Edit: According to this report, the power density they achieved was 10μW/cm^3, which translates to 0.001047 W/kg or roughly 285000 times lower than a lithium ion cell.
I believe you are correct. Although with that I now don't even think spacecraft would benefit from this. Its more on the level of pacemakers and trinkets...
Combining your post and Loner above you, there may be some middle ground here.
If it is not mobile, then weight and 'spot power' are not that relevant.
A large battery of these producing hydrogen may be the way to look.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

loner
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by loner » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:18 pm

your link is from 6 months article and talking about diamond Schottkys with nickel-63 achieving 3,300mWh/g
however the tass article is few days away talking about gas centrifuge method of enriched the radioactive isotope Nickel-63 to a level of more than 69% while planning to reach 80% in 2019 so is it the same value of 3,300mWh/g ?!!
could values varies ?!!
It Tolls for Thee.

loner
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by loner » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:33 am

by 2030 EU announces deal to cut emissions from new cars by 37.5%, giving a boost to electric cars
https://electrek.co/2018/12/18/eu-deal- ... tric-cars/

brace for 3000 rpm redline :mrgreen:
It Tolls for Thee.

netoperek
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by netoperek » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:01 am

loner wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:33 am
by 2030 EU announces deal to cut emissions from new cars by 37.5%, giving a boost to electric cars
https://electrek.co/2018/12/18/eu-deal- ... tric-cars/

brace for 3000 rpm redline :mrgreen:
And very high prices for second hand cars with solid ICE inside

Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:06 pm

loner wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:33 am
by 2030 EU announces deal to cut emissions from new cars by 37.5%, giving a boost to electric cars
https://electrek.co/2018/12/18/eu-deal- ... tric-cars/

brace for 3000 rpm redline :mrgreen:
I agree with the guy when he says "I think there will be so many great new all-electric vehicle options on the market over the next 5 years, that no one will want to buy a non-electric vehicle at some point between 2020 and 2025."
So the reduction will not be a big deal. Also, it is 'only' Co2 that will be affected, so some will be 're-tuning' the output rather than reducing the whole slice.

The biggest restriction on Electric cars will still be having somewhere to plug them in. I will seriously look at a hybrid next time, but not remotely interested in a plug-in as things stand.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by djos » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:25 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:06 pm
loner wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:33 am
by 2030 EU announces deal to cut emissions from new cars by 37.5%, giving a boost to electric cars
https://electrek.co/2018/12/18/eu-deal- ... tric-cars/

brace for 3000 rpm redline :mrgreen:
I agree with the guy when he says "I think there will be so many great new all-electric vehicle options on the market over the next 5 years, that no one will want to buy a non-electric vehicle at some point between 2020 and 2025."
So the reduction will not be a big deal. Also, it is 'only' Co2 that will be affected, so some will be 're-tuning' the output rather than reducing the whole slice.

The biggest restriction on Electric cars will still be having somewhere to plug them in. I will seriously look at a hybrid next time, but not remotely interested in a plug-in as things stand.
If ppl charge them at home overnight then this is a total non issue - except for long drives interstate.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Big Tea » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:33 pm

djos wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:25 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:06 pm
loner wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:33 am
by 2030 EU announces deal to cut emissions from new cars by 37.5%, giving a boost to electric cars
https://electrek.co/2018/12/18/eu-deal- ... tric-cars/

brace for 3000 rpm redline :mrgreen:
I agree with the guy when he says "I think there will be so many great new all-electric vehicle options on the market over the next 5 years, that no one will want to buy a non-electric vehicle at some point between 2020 and 2025."
So the reduction will not be a big deal. Also, it is 'only' Co2 that will be affected, so some will be 're-tuning' the output rather than reducing the whole slice.

The biggest restriction on Electric cars will still be having somewhere to plug them in. I will seriously look at a hybrid next time, but not remotely interested in a plug-in as things stand.
If ppl charge them at home overnight then this is a total non issue - except for long drives interstate.
But what % of owners would have charging capability at home? Especially in cities where there are many families per building and limited frontage/parking yard. Even with a drive, if a family has more than one car there is the 'problem'
of trailing leads, which do not mix with children and dogs.

We have just the one car now, but I an still unable to get within 20 feet of the house, so I either have to get a charge point put in the drive or trail the wire. (it is not practical to bring the drive closer)

If the option is there to charge at work, that helps, but a high %of people will have neither choice, so unless charge times drop to less than 10 min, it is not 'convenient enough' to change.

Lots of outlets in public parking would fix the problem, but that would depend on committees believing they will get their money back after installation, maintenance and the cost of power. I am doubtful many will make that jump for some time.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by djos » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:02 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:33 pm
djos wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:25 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:06 pm


I agree with the guy when he says "I think there will be so many great new all-electric vehicle options on the market over the next 5 years, that no one will want to buy a non-electric vehicle at some point between 2020 and 2025."
So the reduction will not be a big deal. Also, it is 'only' Co2 that will be affected, so some will be 're-tuning' the output rather than reducing the whole slice.

The biggest restriction on Electric cars will still be having somewhere to plug them in. I will seriously look at a hybrid next time, but not remotely interested in a plug-in as things stand.
If ppl charge them at home overnight then this is a total non issue - except for long drives interstate.
But what % of owners would have charging capability at home? Especially in cities where there are many families per building and limited frontage/parking yard. Even with a drive, if a family has more than one car there is the 'problem'
of trailing leads, which do not mix with children and dogs.

We have just the one car now, but I an still unable to get within 20 feet of the house, so I either have to get a charge point put in the drive or trail the wire. (it is not practical to bring the drive closer)

If the option is there to charge at work, that helps, but a high %of people will have neither choice, so unless charge times drop to less than 10 min, it is not 'convenient enough' to change.

Lots of outlets in public parking would fix the problem, but that would depend on committees believing they will get their money back after installation, maintenance and the cost of power. I am doubtful many will make that jump for some time.
For those in apartments, the building owner could easily add electric chargers to the parking spots and link the metering to each apartment.

For folk like yourself the council's would install road side chargers and use them as an additional revenue source.

Then there's Australia and America, most of us living in the suburbs have car garages so that's easy.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:03 pm

inductive charging
driven by taxpayer subsidy of course

Nonserviam85
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Nonserviam85 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:12 pm

djos wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:25 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:06 pm
loner wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:33 am
by 2030 EU announces deal to cut emissions from new cars by 37.5%, giving a boost to electric cars
https://electrek.co/2018/12/18/eu-deal- ... tric-cars/

brace for 3000 rpm redline :mrgreen:
I agree with the guy when he says "I think there will be so many great new all-electric vehicle options on the market over the next 5 years, that no one will want to buy a non-electric vehicle at some point between 2020 and 2025."
So the reduction will not be a big deal. Also, it is 'only' Co2 that will be affected, so some will be 're-tuning' the output rather than reducing the whole slice.

The biggest restriction on Electric cars will still be having somewhere to plug them in. I will seriously look at a hybrid next time, but not remotely interested in a plug-in as things stand.
If ppl charge them at home overnight then this is a total non issue - except for long drives interstate.
This is the greatest risk actually, everyone charging at the same time! The Grids will collapse!