Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
trinidefender
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by trinidefender » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:35 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:27 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:10 am
gruntguru wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:54 am

There is no technical difference between an internal and external wastegate. The location of the venting port in the exhaust manifold moves to the turbine housing but is still in the high pressure plumbing prior to the turbine wheel.
There must be quite some technical differences that gives a justified technical advantage for a formula one engine designer to opt for an external waste-gate system that initials the extra hardware (external waste-gate, external bypassing exhaust pipes all the way to the rear of the car with all the added weight and space taking-up. Formula one component designers goes to extreme lengths to save weight and space.
Internal gates suck for boost control, everyone that wants better boost response goes external gate and boost controller.
In the civilian tuner world, which I would guess you're involved in from your posts that I've read, this may be true. However it is only true due to the limitations imposed by off the shelf turbochargers. It isn't some inherent limitation that automatically means that they are worse.

The turbochargers that are available to the tuner market tend to be built to fit into small spaces to work in OEM sized engine bays with minimal modifications. As such internally gated turbines tend to have compromised turbine housings with small wastegate flaps which open at odd angles. The tuner manufacturers (Garrett, precision etc) know that if someone is chasing high boost pressures and have the space then they can spend the extra bucks on an external wastegate.

This isn't a limitation that is imposed on F1 manufacturers. Don't forget that externally wastegated turbochargers (on road cars) can still recycle the bypass gasses back into the main exhaust stream.

carisi2k
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Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by carisi2k » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:43 pm

Maybe I don't know what I am talking but weren't the waste gates feed back in to the exhaust in the 2014 PU's and then to make the PU's make more noise they moved them to separate pipes and hence why there is a 1+2 pipe exhausts.

saviour stivala
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:42 am

At start of the new hybrid formula waste-gate/s exhaust gases that had bypassed the turbine were routed back into the turbine exhaust tail-pipe. When waste-gate/s exhaust tail-pipes started to be used, Renault was the only one that had used just one waste-gate exhaust tail-pipe, all others used two.

Ground Effect
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Ground Effect » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:59 pm

Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

ian_s
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Location: Medway Towns

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ian_s » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Ground Effect wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:59 pm
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/rena ... y/4319231/

So says Cyril
so in other words, Renault have made no progress at all and Cyril is spouting more bull than ever before

PhillipM
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Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PhillipM » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:09 pm

Let's be fair, it's more than likely that they have made a good step:

1) They can design the new engine around the much more compact MGU-K unit that they finally got working this year, the old one was massive and required more cooling too.
2) Spec C was a decent step forward, as were the mapping updates they brought late on in the year, as shown by RB's results and the fact that even Renault themselves had surprising turn of pace on a few races it wasn't expected.
3) Renault increased funding to the team last year when they could see the car was starting to come good - and combined with that they're looking at setting up a tech share deal with mclaren for the car side so they have more available for PU financing.

Also, don't underestimate the morale effect of Red Bull leaving, so they're not getting badmouthed in the press every 2 minutes. That gets to everyone eventually.

Ground Effect
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:39 am

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Ground Effect » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:27 pm

PhillipM wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:09 pm
Let's be fair, it's more than likely that they have made a good step:

1) They can design the new engine around the much more compact MGU-K unit that they finally got working this year, the old one was massive and required more cooling too.
2) Spec C was a decent step forward, as were the mapping updates they brought late on in the year, as shown by RB's results and the fact that even Renault themselves had surprising turn of pace on a few races it wasn't expected.
3) Renault increased funding to the team last year when they could see the car was starting to come good - and combined with that they're looking at setting up a tech share deal with mclaren for the car side so they have more available for PU financing.

Also, don't underestimate the morale effect of Red Bull leaving, so they're not getting badmouthed in the press every 2 minutes. That gets to everyone eventually.
I actually agree with you on all aspects, but I have to note I wasn't aware of the tech share with Mclaren. Is it an official thing, or something you suspect could happen logically?
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

PhillipM
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Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PhillipM » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:48 pm

It's just something the shop floor guys have been talking about, so I'm assuming it's something they're discussing but haven't confirmed/commited to yet.
Probably to try to negate the Ferrari/HAAS and RB/TR setups.

Ground Effect
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:39 am

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Ground Effect » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:55 pm

PhillipM wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:48 pm
It's just something the shop floor guys have been talking about, so I'm assuming it's something they're discussing but haven't confirmed/commited to yet.
Probably to try to negate the Ferrari/HAAS and RB/TR setups.
OK, hopefully it'll happen, cause it actually makes loads of sense.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

carisi2k
31
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by carisi2k » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:03 pm

I'm not really sure Mclaren is a team to be sharing resources with since they probably have one of the slowest cars on the grid. I'm praying for Daniel that everything cyril says is true but my skeptical side says otherwise. Aside from the block I wonder if their will be some other architectural changes to the PU such as the placement of the smaller mgu-k. Will the new unit be smaller allowing the new chassis to be packaged tighter.

r101
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by r101 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:32 pm

Last year they said they brought 50 hp over winter. I doubt this year it will be significatly more than that.

But - I do not know how much Budkowski is aero and how much an engine guy. If he had brought with him some secrets (and Wasari confirmed when I asked him directly that Budkowski had access to engine design of all manufacturers), then anything is possible. This would be the winter over which his knowledge would show the most.

lio007
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Location: Austria

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by lio007 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:20 am

r101 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:32 pm
Last year they said they brought 50 hp over winter. I doubt this year it will be significatly more than that.

But - I do not know how much Budkowski is aero and how much an engine guy. If he had brought with him some secrets (and Wasari confirmed when I asked him directly that Budkowski had access to engine design of all manufacturers), then anything is possible. This would be the winter over which his knowledge would show the most.
He is more an Aero-guy, he studied Aerodynamics and was Head of Aero at McLaren before he joined the FIA!
I recently thought about how much PU-information Budkowski has got during his FIA-job. But as you confirmed he has also information in that area. (Still hard for me that the governing body of a multi-billion dollar sport has one chief that has access to literally everything in terms of technology).

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:23 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:37 am
While admittedly English is not my first language I was not trying to contradict anybody while being in agreement. Not at all.
All i was saying is that the Renault wastegates appear to be mounted direclty on the turbine housing.

Look at the two wastegate pipes poking from the side.. And compare their location to the diametrically opposed turbine inlets.

Image


Street car version of mounting external wastegate on the turbine.

Image
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

saviour stivala
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:40 am

That street car version of the externally mounted waste-gate on the turbo is meant to relieving the turbine pressure, the F1 mounted version waste-gate/s used by all four bypasses the turbine when fully open (in free load mode), but the F1 waste-gate/s are also used to relieve turbine pressure in race mode out of a corner when they are momentarily cracked open so the MGU-H spooling-up is made faster. Also re the engine picture, some pages back comments were made re the size of the ‘covered/blanked’ exhaust ports, and that bigger ports and valves than the NA engine are expected. I do not know if reference was to the previous NA 2.4L V8, but just in case, the NA 2.4L V8’S were using 96/98mm bore and the biggest intake valves used I know of was 41mm intake and 32.65mm exhaust which gave an intake valve area to bore area of 37.25%. The present turbocharged 1.6l engine mandated bore is 80mm, and I don’t see and neither can I figure out how bigger valves and ports (areas) than those used on the previous NA engines can be used.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:46 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:40 am
.... but the F1 waste-gate/s are also used to relieve turbine pressure in race mode out of a corner when they are momentarily cracked open so the MGU-H spooling-up is made faster.....
the Honda telemetry data presumably has shown us what Honda do (or did)
presumably they don't pull the H rpm down any further than is right for the corner exit
you seem to be saying that the corner exit driving is done using wastegating as a substitute throttle
ok it's likely the wastegate actuation has a even smaller response 'time constant' than does the MGU-H
btw there's throttling on the intake side (of the engine - and the compressor ???)