Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mzso
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Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 14:52

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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restless wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 08:20
slightly offtopic, but interesting story how Honda engine was not competitive enough in Indicar, and needed 6 years to turn the tide
https://motorsports.vtec.net/blog/227/l ... car-title/
It seems mostly off-topic, since they struggled mostly because of "Manufacturer Aerokits", whatever that was.

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
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Not good with just over a month before testing begins.
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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mzso wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 13:02
restless wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 08:20
slightly offtopic, but interesting story how Honda engine was not competitive enough in Indicar, and needed 6 years to turn the tide
https://motorsports.vtec.net/blog/227/l ... car-title/
It seems mostly off-topic, since they struggled mostly because of "Manufacturer Aerokits", whatever that was.
Each engine maker had an aero kit specific to the make: Honda had a kit developed by Wirth and Chevy had their kit (don't remember who developed it). The Chevy kit was arguably the better of the two. IndyCar then reverted back to a standard kit for all teams.
Honda!

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dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GoranF1 wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 10:27
Some say there are problems on the dyno...
Sounds like the same story every year. Anything specific to note?
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Wouter
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GoranF1 wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 10:27
Some say there are problems on the dyno...
Who are "some"?
Do you have a source?
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RonDennis
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Joined: 24 Oct 2017, 00:56

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Jaisonas wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 02:09
Didnt see any follow up after those fishy articles about current issues with oscillations, so its safe to assume it was about what happened between russian and japanese gp right?
Not according to the article. The article states that Honda NOW wants to fix these problems themselves, which suggest that they haven't been fixed. I suspect that someone within AVL leaked the information to Bild, which would also explain why other outlets haven't been reporting about the situation.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 10:11
PlatinumZealot wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 05:17
Check the graph (the Nox one at lambda =1) and see the inconsistency with the title of it.
The TJI DOES NOT have a 99% reduction in NOx vesrsus normal spark ignition at lamda =1 as the title of the graph suggests. If we cross check it with the second graph we see that this actually "percentage of."
Even at other similar lamda the ex-engine TJI NOx can be considered simlar to normal spark based on other papers too.
The "Lambda = 1" is in brackets immediately after the words "Baseline SI".
The caption below says ". . . engine out NOx emission comparisons of jet ignition and stoichiometric spark ignition combustion"
I was talking about the title not the caption.

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tcooper27
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Joined: 28 Mar 2017, 18:15

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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RonDennis wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 14:59
Jaisonas wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 02:09
Didnt see any follow up after those fishy articles about current issues with oscillations, so its safe to assume it was about what happened between russian and japanese gp right?
Not according to the article. The article states that Honda NOW wants to fix these problems themselves, which suggest that they haven't been fixed. I suspect that someone within AVL leaked the information to Bild, which would also explain why other outlets haven't been reporting about the situation.
Honda saying they "now" want to fix vibration problems on their own could mean it's not fixed or it could mean it's already fixed and they just decided AVL wasn't doing a good job helping them fix it. If you read some of the 2018 tech summary on page 3 it goes into some detail about why they have a hard time predicting vibrations until they get to the track. Spoiler: it's because the drive shaft on the chassis dyno (AVL) is attached to a motor and not a tire and doesn't accurately replicate what vibrations will be like on the track.

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subcritical71
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Joined: 17 Jul 2018, 20:04
Location: USA-Florida

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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tcooper27 wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 15:46
Spoiler: it's because the drive shaft on the chassis dyno (AVL) is attached to a motor and not a tire and doesn't accurately replicate what vibrations will be like on the track.
You hit on a very good point, no matter how much simulation and testing is performed you simply cannot replace track time (augment -> yes, replace -> no). It seems like every year you hear of a team that has 'correlation issues' with some off-track simulation system.

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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subcritical71 wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 16:00
tcooper27 wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 15:46
Spoiler: it's because the drive shaft on the chassis dyno (AVL) is attached to a motor and not a tire and doesn't accurately replicate what vibrations will be like on the track.
You hit on a very good point, no matter how much simulation and testing is performed you simply cannot replace track time (augment -> yes, replace -> no). It seems like every year you hear of a team that has 'correlation issues' with some off-track simulation system.
Part of on track development is in creating these predictive algorithms. The holy grail is using the track to validate the designs and not the other way around. In a way teams are forced to work this way as actual track time is so limited. Simulation technology is something the general public knows nothing about, yet is a huge driver of car performance.
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gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 15:35
I give up so I will move on...
Good. Now that I have bludgeoned you into submission - you are probably right - that title could have been better worded. :wink:
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lio007
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 23:03
Location: Austria

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dren wrote:
04 Jan 2019, 18:40
Japanese only. Will have to have it translated.
TheJudge features a translation. Very interesting stuff:
https://thejudge13.com/2019/01/08/secre ... proved-hp/

gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

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lio007 wrote:
09 Jan 2019, 06:57
TheJudge features a translation. Very interesting stuff:
https://thejudge13.com/2019/01/08/secre ... proved-hp/
Yes good info there. Good to have the "vibration on upshift" clarified. It seems its a torsional vibration issue excited by unusual combustion pressure signatures. It was only occurring on upshift where engine revs drop significantly in a few milliseconds thanks to seamless shifting.

My interpretation is that turboshaft inertia and/or response time of the DBW throttles results in an inappropriate intake manifold pressure for a short time after the shift. I am surprised they weren't able to cure this by either:
- anticipating the shift and commencing movement of the DBW throttles to the ideal post-shift position - before the shift actually happens. (Driver commands upshift, throttles start moving, upshift occurs . . )
- controlling one of the faster response parameters (ignition timing, injection duration or injection timing) to avoid the vibration.
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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Looks like whenever Honda increase power, they get vibrations... why is this no common with the other engines?
Or maybe the others aren't leaking information as much.
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hurril
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Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 13:02

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ringo wrote:
09 Jan 2019, 08:17
Looks like whenever Honda increase power, they get vibrations... why is this no common with the other engines?
Or maybe the others aren't leaking information as much.
I think Mercedes have had some problems with that as well. I cannot recall when or where I read it now but it does ring a bell. Somewhere :)