Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:09 pm

the UK won't leave the EU on March 29th - either it will never leave, or it might leave in name only and years from now

the constitutional mandate (the Referendum of 2016) is being defied by an anti-democratic conspiracy
I wonder whether Scotland would have been similarly treated had it chosen in its Referendum independence from the UK

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:30 pm

People are allowed to change their mind. Allowing a further vote isn't "anti-democratic" no matter how much the xenophobes might bleat on about it.

If allowing votes a few years apart is so bad, why do we have elections every 4-5 years?
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

trinidefender
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by trinidefender » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:07 pm

Jolle wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:08 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:58 pm
none of this will happen
nobody will cross any bridges they don't have to cross

anyway the GBP is now cheap not expensive
and we don't have to charge import tax where we don't want to
yeah... trying to sell GB as a low wages country doesn't really work... Look at TATA and Ford starting to pull out of the UK and I think more will follow.

The whole "Brexit might work out well, we just don't know" doesn't work for me. So far all the experts and research pointed towards to only downsides. Amsterdam and Frankfurt are reporting more and more relocations from the city and the first factories starting to relocate. The GBP is on it's lowest in decades. They even have the army on standby!

This will be the final nail in the Great British Empire's coffin.
You're contradicting yourself here. The pound being low means it becomes cheaper for those outside the country to operate there. In essence, teams like Mercedes who have their coffers outside of the UK will be laughing as essentially the cost to employ the bulk of the 800 or so staff just dropped. I think they will take a bit of extra paperwork in exchange for that.

The bigger issue here though is that while it's not that hard to move a building to another country, moving its workforce is. Many of the engineers have families and will not want to be uprooted and moved to Germany or wherever else. Sure some will come, but suddenly changing a large chunk of your workforce in a highly skilled industry such as F1 will have disasterous consequences to performance for years to come. The design process requires stability where engineers know one another and have solid working relationships.

Moving a base entirely is not the same as setting up a new satellite base like Honda have done.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:04 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:30 pm
People are allowed to change their mind. Allowing a further vote isn't "anti-democratic" no matter how much the xenophobes might bleat on about it.
If allowing votes a few years apart is so bad, why do we have elections every 4-5 years?
well it is anti-democratic regardless of name-calling
we have elections every 5 years
democracy doesn't exist if soon after an election (or referendum) the 'losers' can have another one
that's the rules of our democracy

simply, the constitutional authority in this matter remains with the people of 2016, not with this Parliament
refusal by Parliament of the PM's bill is the only possible cause of the UK losing it's tariff-free position for the EU 27
passing the withdrawal bill can keep the tariff-free position for ever because it gives a veto to the EU
without the veto the bill would pass Parliament

the likeliest development is the EU agreeing with the UK some slippage of the Mar 29th date
this will be the mechanism of an unconstitutional denial of the referendum mandate

as I say, no-one will be crossing any bridges that they can avoid coming to
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Big Tea
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Big Tea » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:13 pm

People were given so much incorrect and misleading information, when they were ever given information, that they often acted on false expectations.
I suppoer anyone who voted leave, although I did not, but think Farage and his ilk should be charged with treason when you consider the damage they have done.
A Genuine wish to leave is fine and democratic, misleading people with sound bites and outright lies is propaganda.
The government is just as guilty for not making the correct information available. Although, I often wonder if they know.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:35 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:04 pm

simply, the constitutional authority in this matter remains with the people of 2016, not with this Parliament
The referendum was an opinion finder, not a legally-binding vote. The legislation passed by Parliament says as much.

The funniest part about the whole sorry affair is people before the referendum shouting "Parliament must be sovereign" are now shouting "how dare Parliament be sovereign".

Brexit is favoured by a small minority (Rees-Mogg etc) who stand to make a lot of money, and the rest who just hate foreigners. It's that simple.

It makes me ashamed to hold a British passport. We are a laughing stock, politically, and a pariah socially.

And all for the sake of the Tory Party trying to keep 30 or so millionaire backbenchers on side. :cry:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:37 pm

democracy consists of the voter listening to both candidate's lies and deciding which he prefers

it is anti-democratic to say - as 'they' now do - what the voters really meant when they voted the way they did
any government-elect could be thrown out that way - consider 1945, sore losers wanted the Army to throw Labour out
so 'they' are clearly exhibiting a disbelief in democracy

the real scandal is that no-one ever ever ever mentioned the now-apparent impossible problem - the border in Ireland
they never mentioned it because they 'knew' remain would win
May or her successor will keep the UK in the EU
'Norway plus' is the current buzzterm - this would be truly 'Brexit in name only'

no-one should give mental space to 'clean Brexit'
it never was a real possibility - it's a false narrative put around by remainers - a 'straw man'
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:46 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:35 pm
The referendum was an opinion finder, not a legally-binding vote. The legislation passed by Parliament says as much.
The funniest part about the whole sorry affair is people before the referendum shouting "Parliament must be sovereign" are now shouting "how dare Parliament be sovereign".
rubbish !
try reading what our PM Mr Cameron wrote to each household in the land
you are swallowing the expertly-written false and pernicious narratives that the conspiracy has been peddling since 2016
do you imagine the Scottish Independence Referendum was just an opinion finder !! ??
or the Alternative Vote Referendum ?

PM Mrs May's Withdrawal Bill gives more to remainists than to leavists
btw insofar as the UK ever joined the EU it was by the granting of a free vote in Parliament
if Labour gave a free vote to its MPs the May bill would pass ..... but ....
the Labour leadership doesn't want us to be in the EU because that wouldn't permit nationalisations and lavish spending
the unions don't want us to be in the EU because it's not in their member's interests
but the highly-educated new Labour membership wants nationalisations and continued EU membership

and let's remember it's all Blair's fault
if he hadn't given free access by the 2004 accession countries in 2004 but waited till 2011 as most did ....
none of this would have happened !

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:05 pm

Referenda in the UK are not legally binding. Parliament is sovereign and Parliament can decide to accept or ignore any result. No matter how much politicians might jump up and down and shout "will of the people", Parliament is sovereign and is under no obligation to follow the result. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear but it's the simple truth.

That's the irony of the whole sorry affair - Brexiteers want Parliament to be sovereign and then moan when it acts as a sovereign Parliament.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:09 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:37 pm

no-one should give mental space to 'clean Brexit'
it never was a real possibility - it's a false narrative put around by remainers - a 'straw man'
"clean Brexit"? Do you mean "hard Brexit" as in "no deal, just walk away"? If so, that's a leaver's dream, not a remainer's one. Rees-Mogg et al are all hard/clean Brexit fans. Rees-Mogg, BoJo etc all want the UK to leave entirely and then walk in to some sunlit uplands where the world comes begging at our door. The reality is that the world is laughing, not begging.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:29 pm

rubbish again ! - (yours)

democracy is a rolling loan of the people's authority to those they elected
if the elected choose they can offer the authority in a specified matter back to the people
that is a referendum
the legislature has offered to implement (in the matter specified) the instruction of the people until completion
the legislature cannot resume authority in this matter
unless eg they offer to the people a chance for the people to return authority to the legislature
another referendum - for the people to decide whether to return authority or not
presumably this referendum would bind the legislature to giving the people another referendum on the matter in hand
so the legislature might hope for a different mandate ie a different result from this last referendum

henry
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by henry » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:38 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:46 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:35 pm
The referendum was an opinion finder, not a legally-binding vote. The legislation passed by Parliament says as much.
The funniest part about the whole sorry affair is people before the referendum shouting "Parliament must be sovereign" are now shouting "how dare Parliament be sovereign".
rubbish !
try reading what our PM Mr Cameron wrote to each household in the land
you are swallowing the expertly-written false and pernicious narratives that the conspiracy has been peddling since 2016
do you imagine the Scottish Independence Referendum was just an opinion finder !! ??
or the Alternative Vote Referendum ?
The law setting up the EU referendum specifically said it was advisory.

The law setting up the proportional voting referendum specifically said it was binding ( requiring a super majority)

The law setting up the Scottish referendum was passed in The Scottish Assembly after powers were devolved by the U.K. parliament. It required a simple majority and I haven’t been able to determine if it were binding. But see below.

Mr Cameron intervened on both occasions promising things that were not in his gift but could only be effected by Parliament.

As I understand it the constitutional position on the EU referendum is:

Parliament 1 passed a law saying we would have a referendum the result of which would be advisory to that parliament.

Acting on that advice Parliament 1 invoked Article 50 (the Supreme Court decided only Parliament had that authority)

There was a general election and Parliament 2 was formed.

It is a rule of our constitution that any Parliament is not bound by decisions of a previous Parliament. Otherwise laws would be in perpetuity.

So constitutionally the current Parliament can make any change it likes, Revoke Article 50, hold another referendum, adopt the proposed deal or leave with no deal. Or anything else it decides.

You may feel that some paths would be morally questionable, but the constitution doesn’t care about morals.

Constitutionally the members of parliament who make decisions on behalf of their constituents are held to account in general elections, procedurally they are held to account first by party conclaves who decide if they can represent the party. And it is that procedural but non-constitutional process that caused this mess to accrue, IMHO.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:26 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:29 pm

the legislature cannot resume authority in this matter
Parliament is sovereign. Full stop. All power rests with Parliament. That's how our system works. That's what people voting leave wanted to maintain - the sovereignty of Parliament.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:10 pm

Parliament cannot stop the UK leaving on 29th March
unless the legislature aka 'Government' gets passed a law revoking its existing 'article 50' law which Parliament passed

the Withdrawal bill (if passed) would supervene the above arrangement - so trade would be tariff-free for years or for ever
if Labour were to allow a free vote on Tuesday it might be passed
thereafter we could leave on 29 th March into an indefinite 'transition' period with a trade position like the Swiss one
no tariffs
then maybe after years of negotiation into a permanent no-tariff trade position

my MP will be voting for it - have you asked your MP ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Brexit ultimately affect the performances of F1 teams from 2019 onwards?

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:18 pm

My MP will be voting for it, so far as they have publicly stated. Whether I trust their word is another matter...

Parliament can stop it by, as you say, voting to do so. The Government has control of the business of the House, of course, but MPs find ways to amend other legislation passing through the system in order to do things. This could be done if there was a mind to do so.

I think that we'll end up with the Withdrawal Bill going through - I think MPs are more afraid of a hard Brexit than the "deal Brexit" that is on the table.

Either way, the UK is screwed.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"