Regenerative systems (KERS)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Belatti
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Let me get a bit philosophical here:

There are only 7 principles that can´t be broken (if they does, please explain me how, cause till now I could not find an exception) :

1 Principle of Mentalism
2 Principle of Correspondence
3 Principle of Vibration
4 Principle of Polarity
5 Principle of Rhythm
6 Principle of Cause and Effect
7 Principle of Gender

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kybalion
http://www.gnostic.org/kybalionhtm/kybalion.htm

As Mikey_S said, some rules (like thermodynamics) may break down at the sub-atomic level, but thats another field of action. Even at sub-atomic levels the 7 principles work.

I personally think that the "big bang" was just a point where entropy -and universe- passed to the other side of the scale, like if it was a sinusoid (vibrating with a certain rythm :wink: )

Now, down to earth!
We could got as close to perpetual motion as a 60% of the scale generating energy (serach in this thread for combined cycle) but then that is ruined to 30 or 40% again when we use and transport (superconductivity! someone?) that energy.

So, Chris: there is a long way to go! :)

PD: Please note that at least I don´t hate you, as I don´t like to generalize. I can´t even blame the bunch of blind people who does not know what is happening outside of the USA, cause that´s the way it was planned by government and friends (for more information, watching the 2nd and 3rd part of the public domain movie "Zeitgeist" http://zeitgeistmovie.com/ would be nice)
I know there are plenty of good American people, as also there are "bad" (and this is generalizing, which I don´t like :? ) non-american people. Aftert all, there is only one planet earth :wink:
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Conceptual
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Mikey_s wrote:Chris,

it is entirely possible that there are some exceptions to the laws of thermodynamics and, indeed, some of our general rules start to break down at the sub-atomic level. However, one of the things that gives us confidence that they are more or less correct is the universe itself; which is obeying the laws of thermodynamics as we speak; it is cooling down (evening out the temperature) and becoming less ordered, thereby obeying the conservation of energy and increase in entropy. Of course, just prior to the big bang it was probably not obeying the laws, but pretty soon after a few microseconds) it started to do just as one would predict - and, as the universe didn't exist prior to the big bang, it's probably academic to consider whether the laws applied then in any case :P .

Meanwhile, back in the real world there is a vanishingly small probability that we will manage to get even close to perpetual motion... but I'm not sure that we need to; there is plenty of energy pouring into our planet from the sun - it isn't really renewable, but for the purposes of our likely time as human beings on the planet we can consider it so. We can also use other (non renewable, but pretty long lasting) sources of energy such as tidal power from the moon's gravitational pull.... or less polluting sources of energy such as nuclear. However, until someone can provide one example of where the laws of thermodynamics don't work in a practical sense I think we can accept them as being applicable to the planet in general and Formula 1 in particular.

For the record, I'm not wedded to fossil fuels, nor anti-progress; I'm wide open to new technologies and astonished that the internal combustion engine is still so revered by car makers... it's hopelessly inefficient from the thermal energy perspective, it also brings to mind a saying I particularly like; you can polish a turd, but even when you've finished it's still a turd! Some internal combustion engines are things of beauty, but they ain't efficient...

As the old joke goes about the village idiot giving some directions to a fellow who was lost; "in fact the best way to get to your destination is not to start from here!" - never a truer word spoken in my opinion (and perhaps the village idiot wasn't such an idiot!).
I think before the big bang, you had a sphere of all matter in the universe, or 1U of matter, and the density built heat through gravity and friction, and it exploded into what we have now.

But I also think that there was a cycle (or maybe millions of cycles) before that happened, because if the laws of physics holds true, eventually the spreading of the Universe will stop, and then it will shrink. Since the conservation laws are in effect there will be exactly 1U of matter when shrinkage is complete and then erupts with another bang that leads to mathematic probability with the laws of physics deciding the path of progression.

I don't think God said "Be." I think God said "Be this way, now GO!"

Chris

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Carlos
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Re: Regenerative systems

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From my local paper:

Chris Vander Doelen
Tuesday, July 08, 2008
"The British-built flybrids which will be used in F1 develop 80 horsepower from a five-kg (11-lb) wheel which measures 20 cm in diameter (7.9 inches) by 10 cm wide (3.9 inches).
The F1 units, which weigh only 44 lbs (20 kg) in total, are capable of storing up to 400 kilojoules of energy per lap, releasing it in quick bursts that can boost acceleration for up to seven seconds at a time to aid passing.
Not yet convinced that flybrids have a future? Consider this: they weigh half as much as an electric hybrid system, take up half the space, are twice as efficient and cost 75 per cent less. And there is no battery memory to worry about.

The F1 flybrids are being built by U.K. transmission maker Torotrak Plc, which calls its system KERS, for kinetic energy recovery system. They're also working on a 268-horsepower system for the 2011 F1 season."

268 HP flywheel KERS in 2011? Anyone else read anything about this?

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Scotracer
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Carlos wrote:From my local paper:

Chris Vander Doelen
Tuesday, July 08, 2008
"The British-built flybrids which will be used in F1 develop 80 horsepower from a five-kg (11-lb) wheel which measures 20 cm in diameter (7.9 inches) by 10 cm wide (3.9 inches).
The F1 units, which weigh only 44 lbs (20 kg) in total, are capable of storing up to 400 kilojoules of energy per lap, releasing it in quick bursts that can boost acceleration for up to seven seconds at a time to aid passing.
Not yet convinced that flybrids have a future? Consider this: they weigh half as much as an electric hybrid system, take up half the space, are twice as efficient and cost 75 per cent less. And there is no battery memory to worry about.

The F1 flybrids are being built by U.K. transmission maker Torotrak Plc, which calls its system KERS, for kinetic energy recovery system. They're also working on a 268-horsepower system for the 2011 F1 season."

268 HP flywheel KERS in 2011? Anyone else read anything about this?
Yes, the FIA are allowing 200kW systems in 2011, along with whatever the new engine regulations will be.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

Conceptual
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Just got this video emailed to me. It is all about fluid power, and the current technological advances and achievements. About half way through, they show a car regenerative system that is simply amazing. I dont know if flywheels are the best for F1. A team with a good hydraulic system could surprise some people next year.

http://www.nfpa.com/Education/Edu_NFPA-FP-TVprogram.asp

Chris

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems

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The are some fundamental problems to hydraulic KERS. One is the relatively low efficiency of rotary pumps and motors. Second is the high weight of incompressible fluids. And third is the big space requirement of hydraulic accumulators and their akward form factor. All of this is less relvant when you come to heavy commercial vehicles but it seriously impacts on road cars and racing cars. So I do not see this resolved in a short period of time. We discussed this when Ciro presented the hydristor. I hav not heard about progress of this device for the last year.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Conceptual
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Re: Regenerative systems

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WhiteBlue wrote:The are some fundamental problems to hydraulic KERS. One is the relatively low efficiency of rotary pumps and motors. Second is the high weight of incompressible fluids. And third is the big space requirement of hydraulic accumulators and their akward form factor. All of this is less relvant when you come to heavy commercial vehicles but it seriously impacts on road cars and racing cars. So I do not see this resolved in a short period of time. We discussed this when Ciro presented the hydristor. I hav not heard about progress of this device for the last year.
Still, a very good vid!

Chris

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mx_tifoso
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Youtube- Ferrari F2009 KERS K.E.R.S. for dummies
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-A6ZcenX7s[/youtube]

Youtube- Ferrari F2009 KERS K.E.R.S. 2
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLdepyyu ... re=related[/youtube]

Youtube- Ferrari F2009 KERS K.E.R.S. 3
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU6TlHqM ... re=related[/youtube]
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pipex
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Thanks, nice videos :)
"We will have to wait and see".

pgj
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Sam Michael recently said that Williams will release the energy stored in its flywheel KERS into the drivetrain "at the push of a button through an electro-engine".

What is an electro-engine. Is this an electric motor?
Williams and proud of it.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Yes Iread it on AMuS http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/spor ... _13987.hbs . He speaks of an electric motor. It surprises me that they use an electric motor but the reason may be the open architecture for 4W-KERS. The system is quite heavy at 40 kg as I suspected. Williams are not sure if they will race it next year unless they can drop some weight.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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mx_tifoso
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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From 'autosport', for the time being anyways,

They have reported that due to characteristics of the new slick tyres, the cars will have to feature front end weight bias. And with KERS possibly weighing up to 60kg's, the positive effect of the new device could be negated, or simply cancelled out, since it adds so much mass to the rear end. But of course teams could simply design their chassis and suspension to meet their weight distribution needs. So we'll see when the teams start running 2009 packages in a few weeks how they fare and what they have done as far as that dilemma goes.

Thus not only the design of the KERS will effect the performance of the car, but it's effect coupled to the tyre characteristics and needs.

Ross Brawn commenting on KERS in general;
It [KERS] can be quite a strategic advantage. There are a number of tracks when the gain at the start could be two or three car lengths between a car with KERS and a car without KERS.

Some tracks will provide no benefit because they don't have long enough straights before the first corner, but there are a number of tracks where KERS will be very relevant for the start, and could mean two or three car places."
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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Just wondering, does anyone know if a Kers (flywheel type) could double as the alternator? perhaps reversed compared to conventional designs due to the difficulties of a copper wound armature rotating at 60,000rpm. i.e. with windings in the KERS casing and a magnetised coating deposited electrolytically or possible plasma sprayed on the exterior of the flywheel (easier to balance by grinding etc and less likely to disintegrate). I am asuming that higher speed 60,000rpm available (at least some of the time) would require less hardware i.e. magnets and windings to generate the same power and overall would save more than it looses in sapping power from the Kers system by doing away with the weight of a seperate alternator???

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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http://www.williamshybridpower.com/technology/

you will find the basics of the technology you are looking for.
The MLC technology .... incorporates the permanent magnets of the integral motor/generator into the composite structure of the flywheel itself by mixing magnetic powder into the resin matrix.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Mmm, That has me thinking.

I was thinking of the same thing but mechanically driven with the capability to bleed off electrical power for running the car etc.

Did they ever get around the problem of sealing the bearings against the vacuum in the flywheel casing on the Flybrid/torotrak mechanically driven flywheel? It was pretty close to the anouncement of KERS being allowed and it wasn't sussed I didn't think...according to some magazine articles and stuff. Not an overnight fix that one I wouldn't have thought.

Does this mean both types of Kers systems now being planned will receive and output electrical energy, the principal difference being the Williams style system uses flywheel storage and the others use batteries/capacitors? If so I wonder how are they gathering this electrical energy? Drawing heavily on the alternator during braking?

I suppose an alternator would be rotating at a lower speed getting around the vacuum/bearing seal issue, making it kind of like an electrical CVT eh!

and then to release this power back into the drivetrain???
Are they going to feed power back into a dual purpose alternator/motor like they used to use on old road cars to do the starting AND charging?
Please someone help me out as this is all making me feel very thick and I'm sure the answer is right in front of me...