2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

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siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by siskue2005 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:44 am

Restomaniac wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:42 am
GPR -A wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:35 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:29 am


they did that to be fair to two drivers, and it was the best option
All along, Mercedes' rules of engagement has been that, the lead driver gets to pit first and gets the most optimum strategy. There have been instances where (and it's mostly not Lewis) the second driver got the first pit stop as there was genuine and inherent danger of losing second place. Here, the double stack was definitely not required .

I remember 2016 Austria when initially Lewis was put on one stop and then for no reason, it was changed to two stop and despite having managed the race lead comfortably, Lewis lost the lead to Nico due that ridiculously stupid strategy move. So, Mercedes has this habit of shooting in their own foot by going for things kind of stupid strategies for the sake of being OVERTLY fair.
One cannot fail to see why Hamilton was annoyed.

You lay the ground work and pull a nice gap. Then after the pits you have a mirror full of your team mate when you were supposed to get the better pit strategy.
The undercut for some reason is massive this season.... perhaps mercedes didnt calculate for such a massive differene? maybe?

Schuttelberg
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Schuttelberg » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:47 am

Hammerfist wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:48 am
Schuttelberg wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:27 am
Can someone tell me what happened to Lewis suddenly? I heard he had lost motivation and this was one of his "off weekends?" :lol:
Yes, it's funny seeing the likes of Nico Rosberg having to back track now.
Personally, I don't find it funny. He won his title, retired and I have no problem unlike some for him to be around and give us his views. BUT, he seems to babble on a lot about his contemporaries and their competence. He seems to forget that he won a championship for which he went through a lot of hardships and easily disrespects people who have perhaps been through the same or more. In Bahrain, he was at Seb's throat and this week he chose Lewis. I find it incredibly distasteful and I am not a resentful or hateful person but he definitely tries to get that started in me.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

marvin78
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by marvin78 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:48 am

It's a real mess with these tyres. I don't like this type of racing but some people do.

GPR -A
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by GPR -A » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:50 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:44 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:42 am
GPR -A wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:35 am
All along, Mercedes' rules of engagement has been that, the lead driver gets to pit first and gets the most optimum strategy. There have been instances where (and it's mostly not Lewis) the second driver got the first pit stop as there was genuine and inherent danger of losing second place. Here, the double stack was definitely not required .

I remember 2016 Austria when initially Lewis was put on one stop and then for no reason, it was changed to two stop and despite having managed the race lead comfortably, Lewis lost the lead to Nico due that ridiculously stupid strategy move. So, Mercedes has this habit of shooting in their own foot by going for things kind of stupid strategies for the sake of being OVERTLY fair.
One cannot fail to see why Hamilton was annoyed.

You lay the ground work and pull a nice gap. Then after the pits you have a mirror full of your team mate when you were supposed to get the better pit strategy.
The undercut for some reason is massive this season.... perhaps mercedes didnt calculate for such a massive differene? maybe?
I am sure they have enough data from the previous GPs to know what the time difference is for pitting. They also had the data from the first set of pit stops. So it's not such a big deal to know that difference and they are Mercedes!

f1316
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by f1316 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:51 am

Binnotto out! ;)

I’m joking, of course, but it is getting a bit worrying from a Ferrari perspective to be 30 points behind in drivers and 60 in constructors after 3 races; really horrendous start to the season and I think it’s becoming clearer that the Mercedes car may just be a bit quicker on the overall balance - with some circuit specific swings.

Ferrari certainly need to find a reasonably big step - the pace delta to Mercedes isn’t huge, but to claw back a lead like this (without relying on bad relatability/luck for your opponents) requires an outright faster car and that doesn’t appear to be what they have.

siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by siskue2005 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:52 am

GPR -A wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:50 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:44 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:42 am
One cannot fail to see why Hamilton was annoyed.

You lay the ground work and pull a nice gap. Then after the pits you have a mirror full of your team mate when you were supposed to get the better pit strategy.
The undercut for some reason is massive this season.... perhaps mercedes didnt calculate for such a massive differene? maybe?
I am sure they have enough data from the previous GPs to know what the time difference is for pitting. They also had the data from the first set of pit stops. So it's not such a big deal to know that difference and they are Mercedes!
i was talking about the first stop where Bottas was 5 to 6 sec behind but with one lap underut he was just 1.5 sec behind lewis

Schuttelberg
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Schuttelberg » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:00 am

I'll just give my two cents on the whole situation with Vettel & Leclerc-

I think today was an incredibly harsh day for Charles and once more, he's handled himself with tremendous aplomb and grace. For him to stomach this after Bahrain is tough, really really tough!

I think, it appeared that Sebastian was faster than Charles in the first stint and in my opinion, Ferrari had to swap them around to just try to see if Sebastian can challenge even one Mercedes. However, I believe the call was made 2-3 laps later than it should have been made. Once the swap happened, they should have realised that both Charles and Sebastian were doing identical lap times and Seb was at best a tenth a lap faster but not every lap or consistently. The ideal scenario then would have been to pit Charles before Max to 'prevent' an undercut and then have Seb cover Max off. They could have gone long then with Seb and tried a stint on brand new S tyres at the end with Charles on another stint with the M.

It's all easy in hindsight. Lewis was in a direct championship fight with Nico in 2016 and I seem to recall him benefitting from having Nico move over to pip Daniel at Monaco. Ferrari's issues are not their drivers, or the car per se. It's operations and lack of foresight. It was clear to me on Saturday that their race was with the Bulls and not the Mercedes.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

Unc1eM0nty
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Unc1eM0nty » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:07 am

Schuttelberg wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:47 am
Personally, I don't find it funny. He won his title, retired and I have no problem unlike some for him to be around and give us his views. BUT, he seems to babble on a lot about his contemporaries and their competence. He seems to forget that he won a championship for which he went through a lot of hardships and easily disrespects people who have perhaps been through the same or more. In Bahrain, he was at Seb's throat and this week he chose Lewis. I find it incredibly distasteful and I am not a resentful or hateful person but he definitely tries to get that started in me.
I just find it strange that Rosberg is back at all, fair enough he achieved what he wanted, he'd had enough of the pressure so walked away.

But now he's back, but as a pundit - why? if he misses it that much then come back and compete

Most pundits either weren't good enough (Palmer Di Resta) or are way too old, Rosberg is neither

Steven
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Steven » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:08 am

gandharva wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:27 am
Steven wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:25 am
Would you guys calm down please?

Ferrari's Mattia Binotto noted they wanted to give Vettel a chance, as it was clear the Mercedes were running away from it with Leclerc in third.
It's not so much about letting Vettel trough (a dick move anyway as their pace was nearly identical), but much more about letting Leclerc out for another 3 laps where he lost nearly 3 seconds per lap. That was the real bummer and it was not necessary at all.
I agree with respect to the "dick move", but you have to consider the point of view from Ferrari. It's all too easy to make fun when one is not involved in the situation himself, or when considering just one aspect.

Leclerc had been undercut by Verstappen already, so they tried a different strategy. Worth a try IMHO.

GPR -A
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by GPR -A » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:10 am

Schuttelberg wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:00 am
The ideal scenario then would have been to pit Charles before Max to 'prevent' an undercut and then have Seb cover Max off. They could have gone long then with Seb and tried a stint on brand new S tyres at the end with Charles on another stint with the M.
I actually thought they would do it as swapping again would have costed them time and Verstappen was quite close. They could have gambled with Leclerc with an early pit stop and all their simulations would have told them that, it was a 2 stopper. Ferrari are once again proving that they are Ferrari and can't think on their feet.

siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by siskue2005 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:18 am

Schuttelberg wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:00 am
I'll just give my two cents on the whole situation with Vettel & Leclerc-

It's all easy in hindsight. Lewis was in a direct championship fight with Nico in 2016 and I seem to recall him benefitting from having Nico move over to pip Daniel at Monaco. Ferrari's issues are not their drivers, or the car per se. It's operations and lack of foresight. It was clear to me on Saturday that their race was with the Bulls and not the Mercedes.
Lewis and Nico situation in Monaco was different.....Nico was no where in rain, he was 3 sec slower than Danny and holding up the entire field, when they let Lewis go the gap to Danny was 13 to 15 sec in just 7 laps....and unlike Vettel today, Lewis pulled a massive 5 sec in just 2 laps.

Big Tea
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Big Tea » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:28 am

Unc1eM0nty wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:07 am
Schuttelberg wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:47 am
Personally, I don't find it funny. He won his title, retired and I have no problem unlike some for him to be around and give us his views. BUT, he seems to babble on a lot about his contemporaries and their competence. He seems to forget that he won a championship for which he went through a lot of hardships and easily disrespects people who have perhaps been through the same or more. In Bahrain, he was at Seb's throat and this week he chose Lewis. I find it incredibly distasteful and I am not a resentful or hateful person but he definitely tries to get that started in me.
I just find it strange that Rosberg is back at all, fair enough he achieved what he wanted, he'd had enough of the pressure so walked away.

But now he's back, but as a pundit - why? if he misses it that much then come back and compete

Most pundits either weren't good enough (Palmer Di Resta) or are way too old, Rosberg is neither

Now THERE is a contender for the second Red Bull [-o<
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

jumpingfish
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by jumpingfish » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:35 am

I can't understand why Ferrari allows to undercut them? Can't they test during free practises race simulation and pitstop with changing tyres to see difference in the pace after pit? How can they be sure to win this season if 3/21 races won Mercedes 1-2, engine failures began from winter testing, not effective aero conception + unstable Vettel and damn strategy (gave 4th place to Verstappen today)

GrandAxe
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by GrandAxe » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:40 am

Schuttelberg wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:47 am
Hammerfist wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:48 am
Schuttelberg wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:27 am
Can someone tell me what happened to Lewis suddenly? I heard he had lost motivation and this was one of his "off weekends?" :lol:
Yes, it's funny seeing the likes of Nico Rosberg having to back track now.
Personally, I don't find it funny. He won his title, retired and I have no problem unlike some for him to be around and give us his views. BUT, he seems to babble on a lot about his contemporaries and their competence. He seems to forget that he won a championship for which he went through a lot of hardships and easily disrespects people who have perhaps been through the same or more. In Bahrain, he was at Seb's throat and this week he chose Lewis. I find it incredibly distasteful and I am not a resentful or hateful person but he definitely tries to get that started in me.
You've just listed many of the reasons many don't like to see Nico commenting around the paddock. He won a championship and failed to defend it, which is the minimum expected of a champion to keep any sport going or interesting.

Imagine if Schumacher have retired after his first WDC, or Usain Bolt after his first medal, or Muhammed Ali after his first knock out etc.

There is something wrong about someone who ran off, only to come back and talk so much about the abilities of others who have stuck in the heat for the benefit of the sport.
It is disrespectful, especially to the other WDC's on the grid (Lewis - 5 time, Seb - 4 time, Kimi 1 time and last year, Alonso - 2 time).

Sky most likely brought him back for the controversy, in this brand new world of click marketing and zero values.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 Chinese Grand Prix - Shanghai, April 12-14

Post by Jolle » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:44 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:18 am
Schuttelberg wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:00 am
I'll just give my two cents on the whole situation with Vettel & Leclerc-

It's all easy in hindsight. Lewis was in a direct championship fight with Nico in 2016 and I seem to recall him benefitting from having Nico move over to pip Daniel at Monaco. Ferrari's issues are not their drivers, or the car per se. It's operations and lack of foresight. It was clear to me on Saturday that their race was with the Bulls and not the Mercedes.
Lewis and Nico situation in Monaco was different.....Nico was no where in rain, he was 3 sec slower than Danny and holding up the entire field, when they let Lewis go the gap to Danny was 13 to 15 sec in just 7 laps....and unlike Vettel today, Lewis pulled a massive 5 sec in just 2 laps.
Exactly. Especially in the Rosberg-Hamilton years, race strategy for Mercedes was to do what was best for the team, not for a driver. By letting Hamilton pass Rosberg in Monaco '16, they maximised their result as a team (he won, remember, instead of finishing 6th and 7th). Ferrari looked today if they wanted to get Leclec away from Vettel, just in case, even when it meant finishing 3th and 5th instead of 3th, possible 2nd and 4th. Protecting Vettel like this is costing them points.
Leclerc smells blood.... the coming season will be very very interesting between the two of them.