Scuderia Ferrari SF90

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
mmred
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mmred » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:54 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:41 am
GrandAxe wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:19 am
mmred wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:30 am


5 seconds in a hour race seems a pretty recoverable gap, aero choices suited for this track or not ( and i think it is strange they will wait spain for the new aero package to recover it )
5 seconds is easily recoverable, true. But Ferrari's aero issue really came to the fore on this track, the understeery front end refuses to bite. Did you notice how much front tyre locking both cars had through the race?

Ferrari seems to have gone for a low downforce, high engine power, high speed configuration. Unfortunately though, the engine seems to have reliability problems that means that any gains from high speed are lost, in turn, making their low downforce very costly.

If an aero package is not due until Spain, then it must be a pretty comprehensive one, perhaps they might even (hopefully) change their front wing style. If the engine gremlins are easier to fix, then might keep their present configuration and become a real bullet on the track - a monster, particularly at tracks like Spa and Monza.
do they lack front downforce? their front wing philosophy could be the culprit?
yeah bt the front affects every choice, it s a choice

GrandAxe
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Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:06 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by GrandAxe » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:52 am

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:41 am
GrandAxe wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:19 am
mmred wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:30 am


5 seconds in a hour race seems a pretty recoverable gap, aero choices suited for this track or not ( and i think it is strange they will wait spain for the new aero package to recover it )
5 seconds is easily recoverable, true. But Ferrari's aero issue really came to the fore on this track, the understeery front end refuses to bite. Did you notice how much front tyre locking both cars had through the race?

Ferrari seems to have gone for a low downforce, high engine power, high speed configuration. Unfortunately though, the engine seems to have reliability problems that means that any gains from high speed are lost, in turn, making their low downforce very costly.

If an aero package is not due until Spain, then it must be a pretty comprehensive one, perhaps they might even (hopefully) change their front wing style. If the engine gremlins are easier to fix, then might keep their present configuration and become a real bullet on the track - a monster, particularly at tracks like Spa and Monza.
do they lack front downforce? their front wing philosophy could be the culprit?
Indeed everything points to that. Maybe things will change if they really have a power advantage and can get over their engine problems. If they can't, then it will be a few months before they can change downforce philosophy, by which time it might be too late.

GrandAxe
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by GrandAxe » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:01 pm

mmred wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:50 am
GrandAxe wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:19 am
mmred wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:30 am


5 seconds in a hour race seems a pretty recoverable gap, aero choices suited for this track or not ( and i think it is strange they will wait spain for the new aero package to recover it )
5 seconds is easily recoverable, true. But Ferrari's aero issue really came to the fore on this track, the understeery front end refuses to bite. Did you notice how much front tyre locking both cars had through the race?

Ferrari seems to have gone for a low downforce, high engine power, high speed configuration. Unfortunately though, the engine seems to have reliability problems that means that any gains from high speed are lost, in turn, making their low downforce very costly.

If an aero package is not due until Spain, then it must be a pretty comprehensive one, perhaps they might even (hopefully) change their front wing style. If the engine gremlins are easier to fix, then might keep their present configuration and become a real bullet on the track - a monster, particularly at tracks like Spa and Monza.
the front locks have more to do with brake balance and slowering very much at slow corners

remember they have a problem in slow ones, on fast corners they alread have a bit of advantage instead (barhein...)
so it s a mixed situation,like last year mercedes at the first races, plus the engine advantage , bots allowing, is a better resource merc didnt have last year....

we can see a recover if the aero department delivers
They were locking the inside fronts in order to be able to make the corner - that's understeer. They don't have enough bite to get into corners tightly enough. As for the fast corners, it should serve them well for Monza and Spa.

ferkan
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Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:50 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by ferkan » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:20 pm

Not buying it tbh. High speed corners are more relient on DF then lower speed ones. In Ferraris case, low speed corners <120kph are where they are losing the most time, but in high speed corners they have no issues at all.

It might be FW influenced, but I am thinking its more duo to suspension and mechanical grip then FW design.

F1Krof
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by F1Krof » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:38 pm

ferkan wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:20 pm
Not buying it tbh. High speed corners are more relient on DF then lower speed ones. In Ferraris case, low speed corners <120kph are where they are losing the most time, but in high speed corners they have no issues at all.

It might be FW influenced, but I am thinking its more duo to suspension and mechanical grip then FW design.
I agree with you. However, I think it's a combination of both factors. They just have to get it right, other than that the car's super fast.
Wroom wroom

One and Only
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by One and Only » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:55 pm

I think this car simply cannot make tires work in some conditions. In slow corners it's all about mechanical grip and front doesn't seem to bite. In fast corners they seem to do fine. I agree Rosberg probably has access to some people/information we don't, but there is just not (enough) evidence for his claims on track.
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

mmred
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mmred » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:59 pm

GrandAxe wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:01 pm
mmred wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:50 am
GrandAxe wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:19 am


5 seconds is easily recoverable, true. But Ferrari's aero issue really came to the fore on this track, the understeery front end refuses to bite. Did you notice how much front tyre locking both cars had through the race?

Ferrari seems to have gone for a low downforce, high engine power, high speed configuration. Unfortunately though, the engine seems to have reliability problems that means that any gains from high speed are lost, in turn, making their low downforce very costly.

If an aero package is not due until Spain, then it must be a pretty comprehensive one, perhaps they might even (hopefully) change their front wing style. If the engine gremlins are easier to fix, then might keep their present configuration and become a real bullet on the track - a monster, particularly at tracks like Spa and Monza.
the front locks have more to do with brake balance and slowering very much at slow corners

remember they have a problem in slow ones, on fast corners they alread have a bit of advantage instead (barhein...)
so it s a mixed situation,like last year mercedes at the first races, plus the engine advantage , bots allowing, is a better resource merc didnt have last year....

we can see a recover if the aero department delivers
They were locking the inside fronts in order to be able to make the corner - that's understeer. They don't have enough bite to get into corners tightly enough. As for the fast corners, it should serve them well for Monza and Spa.
their understeer was just in slow corners....
points to mechanical issues, connex to front braking

this points to

maybe weight balance transfer due to running higher rake
without the advantage of a stable rear that delivers the downforce at those speed ( so the rear height changes so much that aero stalls and the variation is seen with too much braking on the front but the aero doesnt deliver its downforce)

this points to

can be therefore rear suspension stiffness maybe linked to tyre temp setup see how much leclerc race was lost on a different tyre management that gave vettel more speed after the start

so

the real issue can also be pirelli canging tyre pressure the nx tims in favour of their rivals across all these years
but cars must win wathever happens...like the 2nd benetton ear of schumi or something like that... in the end you win despite every penalt or you just lose

JordanMugen
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by JordanMugen » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:23 pm

dtro wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:19 am
Rosberg is a superhero just like Newey and has CFD vision? I had no clue.
Not so much... Rather, cars with shallow front wing concept like Ferrari (& Alfa Romeo & Toro Rosso) run less overall downforce than cars with conventional front wing. The downforce potential of the shallow front wing is less, and therefore a lower downforce rear wing is also fitted (for balance): these teams are therefore choosing to run lower drag.

Refer BBC's "secret aerodynamicist" > https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/47527705

GrizzleBoy
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Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:06 am

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by GrizzleBoy » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:28 pm

Dont forget guys, that higher downforce can work a tire more and put it into a better temperature range to provide grip. It is possible that the low downforce front wing creates a string of consequences that all work against each other in certain situations.

For example:

Ferraris half wing approach possibly isn't bringing the tyres up to temperature enough under load.

The tyres have a thinner tread this year too, allowing temperature to escape the tyres faster.

The side effect from that would be tyres that are out of their working range, scrubbing across the track more than usual and causing more graining than usual.

Grained tyres grip even less, and create even less temperature as the tyres simply scrub around on bobbles of damaged compound.

Leading to increased degradation.

Leading to slower laps.

Leading to lower temps.

Etc etc etc on and on with everything working and linking together to work against the performance of the car.

mmred
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mmred » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:45 pm

GrizzleBoy wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:28 pm
Dont forget guys, that higher downforce can work a tire more and put it into a better temperature range to provide grip. It is possible that the low downforce front wing creates a string of consequences that all work against each other in certain situations.

For example:

Ferraris half wing approach possibly isn't bringing the tyres up to temperature enough under load.

The tyres have a thinner tread this year too, allowing temperature to escape the tyres faster.

The side effect from that would be tyres that are out of their working range, scrubbing across the track more than usual and causing more graining than usual.

Grained tyres grip even less, and create even less temperature as the tyres simply scrub around on bobbles of damaged compound.

Leading to increased degradation.

Leading to slower laps.

Leading to lower temps.

Etc etc etc on and on with everything working and linking together to work against the performance of the car.
if you read what i wrote before we agree. it s a tyre problem. they cose an aero suited for different tyres, they changed the tyres nw every team with more efficient bu less downforce aero is in trouble having to run softer suspensions to prevent the overheating and losing balance in slow corners when abrupt vertical loads make the car unstable under braking

iit s a multi area problem, all chosen by pirelli

djones
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by djones » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:42 pm

JordanMugen wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:23 pm
dtro wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:19 am
Rosberg is a superhero just like Newey and has CFD vision? I had no clue.
Not so much... Rather, cars with shallow front wing concept like Ferrari (& Alfa Romeo & Toro Rosso) run less overall downforce than cars with conventional front wing. The downforce potential of the shallow front wing is less, and therefore a lower downforce rear wing is also fitted (for balance): these teams are therefore choosing to run lower drag.

Refer BBC's "secret aerodynamicist" > https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/47527705
If the Ferrari/Alfa concept is indeed geared towards low downforce on purpose then it will only ever be a one trick pony.

Not just a new front/rear wing would be needed, but an entirely new spec of car with the traditional concept of Mercedes and Redbull.

I.e. This season is already over for them.

At the last race Ferrari were fastest. But I honestly think this was a case of Mercedes not getting the car working, rather than Ferrari being fast per se.

Jozsusz
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Jozsusz » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:33 pm

Guys, does anyone know the Ferrari engine modes? We know the Merc strat modes which mode means what, but I know nothing about Ferrari.

And in general which modes they are using during races?

MtthsMlw
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Location: Germany

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by MtthsMlw » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:49 pm

Jozsusz wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:33 pm
Guys, does anyone know the Ferrari engine modes? We know the Merc strat modes which mode means what, but I know nothing about Ferrari.

And in general which modes they are using during races?
Engine 1 seems to be the highest mode. They often switch between engine 1, 2, 3 and 4. 3 and 4 are used mostly when you don't have to push during a race and sometimes engine 5 and 6 (conservative) are used e.g in Australia. There are also SOC (state of charge) modes, for example SOC 1 seems to be a high power mode but that's basically all that's known about these modes. You can sometimes hear them talking about K2 and K1 (ERS deployment strategies). K2 is available longer so presumably less power and K1 only sometimes for short periods (SC restart, inlap or attacking to overtake). Last year I also heard them talking about K1+. Generally there is mode push (deploy energy) and mode charge (charging the battery).

zibby43
212
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by zibby43 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:07 pm

Jozsusz wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:33 pm
Guys, does anyone know the Ferrari engine modes? We know the Merc strat modes which mode means what, but I know nothing about Ferrari.

And in general which modes they are using during races?
I posted this in the Merc thread as well, but the article also has some info. on the Ferrari. According to AMuS, Ferrari can run higher power modes more often over the course of a weekend.

Merc only run their engine at full power for about 2 laps per weekend (which they save for Q3). They have had cooling issues since the start of the season. They're hoping to have the issues resolved fully by Barcelona. Marko thinks Merc made a step on the engine side in China.

Wolff: "Ferrari can use higher performance levels in the training sessions than we can. This has to do with the calibration of the engine."

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... hina-2019/

ringo
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by ringo » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:16 am

mmred wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:44 pm
djones wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:42 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:23 pm


Not so much... Rather, cars with shallow front wing concept like Ferrari (& Alfa Romeo & Toro Rosso) run less overall downforce than cars with conventional front wing. The downforce potential of the shallow front wing is less, and therefore a lower downforce rear wing is also fitted (for balance): these teams are therefore choosing to run lower drag.

Refer BBC's "secret aerodynamicist" > https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/47527705
If the Ferrari/Alfa concept is indeed geared towards low downforce on purpose then it will only ever be a one trick pony.

Not just a new front/rear wing would be needed, but an entirely new spec of car with the traditional concept of Mercedes and Redbull.

I.e. This season is already over for them.

At the last race Ferrari were fastest. But I honestly think this was a case of Mercedes not getting the car working, rather than Ferrari being fast per se.
since the problem is not aero but mechanical grip at low speed you are clearly wrong

look it s the famous english news say: it s been years they always pretend the italians have the worst aero... but if you look closely mostly it was the opposite, at least from 2 years the real problem for the italians are tyres and suspensions while they excel on fast corners where aero is needed. it s most selfexaltation from brit newspapers, just that.

it s always complex to say what is the key factor here, but if you loose on straight it s the engine, if you lose on fast corner it prevails the aero, if you lose on slow corners that s where suspensions are the key, guess what s happening now and deduce the problem
The mechanical grip is good with the Ferrari. Watch the videos in detail. In fact it has better mechanical grip than the mercedes. Where i think it is failing is turn in after braking and mid corner; the front end of the car just isn't strong. When it does leave the corner, it actually accelerates quite well on exit, so i think the grip is fine. The problem is aero balance and maybe overall downforce.

The front wing is designed very high in the middle section between the wheels. This is compensation for the small surface are at the outerpart of the wing. So the wing makes similar downforce as the mercedes front wing, it is just distributed differently. The problem is that it makes the downforce between the wheels and downstream of that is the bargeboards. Maybe what is happening is that this highly cambered wing in the middle is resulting in poorer quality air flow between the fronts wheels and towards the barge boards than is the case with the mercedes.
For mercedes and redbull the downforce of the front wing is evenly distributed across its width, and they dont have this agressively cambered middle section which means they have less disturbed flow going between the wheels and onto the barge baords.
For ferrari to address this, they would require a front wing similar to mercedes, or do some more work on the barge boards.
I think they can roll something out in 4 race's time.
Image
edit:
to add to promoting more flow to the barge board area, they can opt for a mercedes type nose tip that is narrow.
For Sure!!