Scuderia Ferrari SF90

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
mantikos
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mantikos » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:54 pm

mmred wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:27 pm
munudeges wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:25 pm
ferkan wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:07 pm
Well, they had cars fighting for WDC/WCC, with, IMO - worse driver lineup, worse strat team and slightly worse engine (2017). In 2017, Ferrari car was best on DF heavy circuits (Monaco, Hungary) and in 2018 it was better then Merc in both (well, until rain in Hungary).
Yer. Nothing. They also faded very badly from a technical point-of-view last season.
Does not really align with "he is engine guy, no wonder car is ---" mentality because they where best cars Ferrari produced since 2007, so there is that.
That's not the benchmark. The benchmark is Mercedes, and they have people like James Allison and Geoff Willis directing their car's direction. You need the right leadership, and technically Ferrari just haven't been getting it right. With the budget Ferrari have they should be where Mercedes is at least all the time.
if you talk of budget mercedes should lap ferrari all the races, they basically have 3 superfamous technical leaders in every sector where ferrari has now just binotto and unknown guys

"basically have 3 superfamous technical leaders in every sector" - Who? former TDs that were let go from previous gigs? Wasn't there a joke at one point that Ross was assembling a team of rejected and fired TDs? They're famous because they're at Merc now, not because they were super famous before, they were all let go at some point. The TEAM matters more than a celebrity name.

mmred
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mmred » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:35 pm

mantikos wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:54 pm
mmred wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:27 pm
munudeges wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:25 pm

Yer. Nothing. They also faded very badly from a technical point-of-view last season.


That's not the benchmark. The benchmark is Mercedes, and they have people like James Allison and Geoff Willis directing their car's direction. You need the right leadership, and technically Ferrari just haven't been getting it right. With the budget Ferrari have they should be where Mercedes is at least all the time.
if you talk of budget mercedes should lap ferrari all the races, they basically have 3 superfamous technical leaders in every sector where ferrari has now just binotto and unknown guys

"basically have 3 superfamous technical leaders in every sector" - Who? former TDs that were let go from previous gigs? Wasn't there a joke at one point that Ross was assembling a team of rejected and fired TDs? They're famous because they're at Merc now, not because they were super famous before, they were all let go at some point. The TEAM matters more than a celebrity name.
ok

...
it s full of nobodies there

henry
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by henry » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:42 pm

Marble wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:20 am
A quote found on twitter, which may contribute to the discussion about the effect of downforce on slow speed corners :
I did a simulation once of a lap around Monaco with no downforce and it was 30-40s slower. Downforce makes the biggest difference in slow speed corners” - James Knapton, Head of Vehicle Science at Red Bull Technolgoies.
And another contribution to that Ferrari speed profile debate found on twitter as well :


QUALI
http://i67.tinypic.com/dltbmb.png

RACE
http://i65.tinypic.com/2565ir5.png

Source :
https://twitter.com/F1_Whisperer/
A minor point from the speed traces. Bottas has virtually the same speed over the start line at the beginning and end of the lap whereas Vettel is quite a bit slower suggesting he ran out some resource, either power or tyres or maybe both.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

hollus
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by hollus » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:51 pm

Quite a few posts about FSAE, seasons past and team politics have been moved to the team thread.

A gentle reminder that the car threads are supposed to stay about the car. As usual, see the opening post in the thread for guidance.

Thank you for helping to keep the car threads from becoming long and unreadable catch-it-all threads.
It is not white, it is not black, it is probably gray.

pantherxxx
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Location: Hungary

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by pantherxxx » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:27 pm

Ferrari was 3 tenths faster in Bahrein, in China it was the other way around. So it seems that it's all about the right setup, we will see different performances in each race weekend, and I would not say that the SF-90 is inferior to the W10 in terms of aero.

3jawchuck
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by 3jawchuck » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:18 pm

mmred wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:25 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:22 pm
mmred wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:15 pm
te only two fast corners 40 and 80 merc lost
I think you need to look at the graph again!
https://ibb.co/KDzHNTD
look at 40 and 85 the only two fast corners over 150
and see the disadvantage getting negative

that s all ican say, grow eyes man
I think you need to explain more. Every single point (bar 55ish) in cornering Bottas appears to be at a faster speed than Vettel. The difference curve seems to show this too, straight line Vettel gains, cornering Bottas gains.
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”
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mmred
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mmred » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:46 pm

3jawchuck wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:18 pm
mmred wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:25 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:22 pm


I think you need to look at the graph again!
https://ibb.co/KDzHNTD
look at 40 and 85 the only two fast corners over 150
and see the disadvantage getting negative

that s all ican say, grow eyes man
I think you need to explain more. Every single point (bar 55ish) in cornering Bottas appears to be at a faster speed than Vettel. The difference curve seems to show this too, straight line Vettel gains, cornering Bottas gains.
it is simple: you compare apex speed, but i see the time under, that talks about brake and traction phase too, so the whole trajectory

it s clear the merc advantage in every corner around 100 kmh basically all the turns beside the 40 and the 85 where, tough, it seems vettel lost the tyres performance completely .

IT IS SIMPLE A MATTER OF TYRE MANAGEMENT IN LOW SPEED CORNERS THAT S ALL
( the aero performance is there, otherwise they couldnt run faster in baarhein and in 40 sec corner the only fast one ... 85 is tricky 90°with worn tyres and still they were almost equivalent in terms of TIME GAIN OR LOSS )

this point to tyres but tyres are choosen by pirelli so an update in every area must be done to cope with slower turns tracks cleaarly. on fast ones things are already diferent, that s what we ve seen so far, then things can always change

ferkan
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by ferkan » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:20 pm

Image
Interesting, it kinda seems cornering speed for Ferrari gets progressively worse as lap goes on + after longer straights. Might be problem with tires as well as well.

bill shoe
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by bill shoe » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:45 pm

Video from 2018 Monaco Qualy clearly shows the RBs being able to attack the chicane corners due to superb low-speed balance in contrast to the Ferraris that had to be passively guided around the same corners due to low-speed understeer (a common weakness of formula cars).

RB's overall time advantage came from the low-speed corners, perfectly consistent with the video. So for low-speed downforce to explain RB's Monaco advantage last year we must assume-
1) RB had more downforce in low-speed turns (presumably on the front?) and this caused the better low-speed turn-in, etc.
2) This downforce advantage went away in all the higher speed turns?

mmred
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by mmred » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:04 am

bill shoe wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:45 pm
Video from 2018 Monaco Qualy clearly shows the RBs being able to attack the chicane corners due to superb low-speed balance in contrast to the Ferraris that had to be passively guided around the same corners due to low-speed understeer (a common weakness of formula cars).

RB's overall time advantage came from the low-speed corners, perfectly consistent with the video. So for low-speed downforce to explain RB's Monaco advantage last year we must assume-
1) RB had more downforce in low-speed turns (presumably on the front?) and this caused the better low-speed turn-in, etc.
2) This downforce advantage went away in all the higher speed turns?
this is what aero setup is for
a car is hardl faster in ever condition
but nobody seems to want to even consider this

Juzh
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Juzh » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:44 am

henry wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:42 pm
Marble wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:20 am
A quote found on twitter, which may contribute to the discussion about the effect of downforce on slow speed corners :
I did a simulation once of a lap around Monaco with no downforce and it was 30-40s slower. Downforce makes the biggest difference in slow speed corners” - James Knapton, Head of Vehicle Science at Red Bull Technolgoies.
And another contribution to that Ferrari speed profile debate found on twitter as well :


QUALI
http://i67.tinypic.com/dltbmb.png

RACE
http://i65.tinypic.com/2565ir5.png

Source :
https://twitter.com/F1_Whisperer/
A minor point from the speed traces. Bottas has virtually the same speed over the start line at the beginning and end of the lap whereas Vettel is quite a bit slower suggesting he ran out some resource, either power or tyres or maybe both.
The analysis is bogus (at least in this respect). Below are images with speed traps from the start of second Q3 laps and the end of those Laps. As you can see Vettel has 3 kmh higher start/finish line at the end than he did at the beggining, and also 4 kmh higher than bottas.

Start of the lap
Image

end of the lap
Image

Marble
14
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:30 pm

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Marble » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:29 am

Juzh wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:44 am
henry wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:42 pm
Marble wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:20 am
A quote found on twitter, which may contribute to the discussion about the effect of downforce on slow speed corners :


And another contribution to that Ferrari speed profile debate found on twitter as well :


QUALI
http://i67.tinypic.com/dltbmb.png

RACE
http://i65.tinypic.com/2565ir5.png

Source :
https://twitter.com/F1_Whisperer/
A minor point from the speed traces. Bottas has virtually the same speed over the start line at the beginning and end of the lap whereas Vettel is quite a bit slower suggesting he ran out some resource, either power or tyres or maybe both.
The analysis is bogus (at least in this respect). Below are images with speed traps from the start of second Q3 laps and the end of those Laps. As you can see Vettel has 3 kmh higher start/finish line at the end than he did at the beggining, and also 4 kmh higher than bottas.

Start of the lap
https://i.imgur.com/oaCt6Hj.jpg

end of the lap
https://i.imgur.com/oDebSOD.jpg

Good remark !

I discussed it with the guy who did it (who's normally really rigorous and careful).
I think there are 2 aspects :
1) The values are correct and there is genuine job in it BUT
2) He got caught up by the offset in the F1 app (see image below. The speed isn't sync with the position on track : at 270kph, at the beginning of the lap, he should have passed the S/F line). You can check on the app, same story with Vettel. The graph seems to be sync'd with the S/F line

https://ibb.co/jWnCCbN

Furthermore, the graphs were TIME-superposed as opposed to position-sync, which is a bit misleading in terms of overlay. But the values are genuine.
Will suggest it to him so sync based on speed values for beginning of the lap and to overlay them distance-based rather than time-based for it to be more accurate next time.

I checked the average speed chart he gave in the 1st stint, and they are spot on.
And apart from the last straight, the delta time is very much in line with video comparison.
So yeah, a bit of inaccuracy towards the end but I think it's based on good work and it's a matter of fine-tuning it.

timbo
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Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:14 am

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by timbo » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:53 pm

In the speed traces the slow corners look like V for Vettel (no pun intended) and U for Bottas. Maybe that's a driver style difference but from my (severely limited) simracing experience this may indicate understeer on turn-in.

PhillipM
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Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by PhillipM » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:07 pm

That's usually a tyre wear/temperature management difference. Veeing the corner reduces tyre temps/wear with these Pirellies.

Ashwinv16
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Ashwinv16 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:43 pm

When it comes to front wings, the Halfway-house solution seems to be the best while, Ferrari and Alfa Romeo's version are the worst as their front wing don't produce enough downforce in front limited tracks, like China and Australia, but the thing is apart from Hungaroring, there isn't any other track that requires the fronts to work well so we still don't know who is on top.
Halo not as bad as we thought