Liberty is ruining F1

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dans79
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:01 am
heck even in Formula 1 teams used to buy chassis from competitors. Formula just refers to a set of rules by which competitors sign up to go racing. It doesn't guarantee teams are constructors or that they hold IP on every single nut and bolt.
They "could" buy stuff from other teams, the rules didn't force them to buy certain p parts from a specific team.

A formula rule series by nature allows teams to have differently designed components, and still be compliant to the rules, Spec parts do not.
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dans79
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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Maplesoup wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:23 am
Nothing about standardizing these parts is affecting the "formula" because pretty much none of the teams develop this stuff themselves anyway.
Again, I think you're drastically missing the point.

If spec rules we're in place since the beginning, no team would have developed/run a double clutch gearbox, or carbon-ceramic brakes, etc because they wouldn't have been allowed to.

Both of those technologies gave teams that first adopted them a competitive edge.
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joshuagore
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:22 am
Maplesoup wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:23 am
Nothing about standardizing these parts is affecting the "formula" because pretty much none of the teams develop this stuff themselves anyway.
Again, I think you're drastically missing the point.

If spec rules we're in place since the beginning, no team would have developed/run a double clutch gearbox, or carbon-ceramic brakes, etc because they wouldn't have been allowed to.

Both of those technologies gave teams that first adopted them a competitive edge.

Could this be solved by doing the following... Spec parts must improve every x years by a quotient devised by and paid for by the teams or some voting body? I understand wanting bespoke everything, but assuming every team is buying x lets look at it like a new ISO/ASTM spec(I win from specs devised by others and for yet others every day as I can apply them to yet other projects), if you wanna make calipers, build to x spec, and teams fund this spec improving as materials and processes improve and governing body demands X% improvement every X years?

Standardized, incremental, improvement?

Zynerji
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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joshuagore wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:05 am
dans79 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:22 am
Maplesoup wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:23 am
Nothing about standardizing these parts is affecting the "formula" because pretty much none of the teams develop this stuff themselves anyway.
Again, I think you're drastically missing the point.

If spec rules we're in place since the beginning, no team would have developed/run a double clutch gearbox, or carbon-ceramic brakes, etc because they wouldn't have been allowed to.

Both of those technologies gave teams that first adopted them a competitive edge.

Could this be solved by doing the following... Spec parts must improve every x years by a quotient devised by and paid for by the teams or some voting body? I understand wanting bespoke everything, but assuming every team is buying x lets look at it like a new ISO/ASTM spec(I win from specs devised by others and for yet others every day as I can apply them to yet other projects), if you wanna make calipers, build to x spec, and teams fund this spec improving as materials and processes improve and governing body demands X% improvement every X years?

Standardized, incremental, improvement?
this is completely solved by forcing teams to share data

dans79
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:59 pm
this is completely solved by forcing teams to share data
Honestly, I think this is just as bad, if not worse.
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Zynerji
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:37 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:59 pm
this is completely solved by forcing teams to share data
Honestly, I think this is just as bad, if not worse.
They all would benefit, and so would we.

dans79
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:01 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:37 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:59 pm
this is completely solved by forcing teams to share data
Honestly, I think this is just as bad, if not worse.
They all would benefit, and so would we.
I vehemently disagree.

Maybe its a cultural difference or something, because it seems like a lot of the European fans want the open wheel equivalent of NASCAR. Large grids, tons of meaningless passes, and cars that are so simple, dumbed down, and equalized that any driver can win on any given Sunday.
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Zynerji
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:18 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:01 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:37 pm


Honestly, I think this is just as bad, if not worse.
They all would benefit, and so would we.
I vehemently disagree.

Maybe its a cultural difference or something, because it seems like a lot of the European fans want the open wheel equivalent of NASCAR. Large grids, tons of meaningless passes, and cars that are so simple, dumbed down, and equalized that any driver can win on any given Sunday.
I'm an American and a businessman. I have built and repaired several businesses over the last 20 years, and I find that one thing always reigns supreme: Synergy is found in Self-Balancing Systems.

Each team reverse-engineers each other's cars. Data sharing would completely remove that expense from the sport.

You seem to think that data-sharing would make all cars identical. That is nonsense. What it would do is allow 10 teams to each spend $100M in development, but to get $1B worth of data in return.

That tightens the field. (Fans win)
That lowers cost. (Teams win)
That prevents cheating. (FIA wins)
That opens development understanding. (Press wins)
That encourages the tech transfer to market. (Manufacturers and Consumers win)

The only downside? You not understanding how a self-balancing system truly works.
Last edited by Zynerji on Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

dans79
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:34 pm
I'm an American and a businessman. I have built and repaired several businesses over the last 20 years, and I find that one thing always reigns supreme: Synergy is found in Self-Balancing Systems.
Good for you, but I'm pretty sure most here don't care!
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Zynerji
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:47 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:34 pm
I'm an American and a businessman. I have built and repaired several businesses over the last 20 years, and I find that one thing always reigns supreme: Synergy is found in Self-Balancing Systems.
Good for you, but I'm pretty sure most here don't care!
No, most just spew opinion with no experience or data to back it up, nor a vision as to how things play out in the real world.

dans79
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:48 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:47 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:34 pm
I'm an American and a businessman. I have built and repaired several businesses over the last 20 years, and I find that one thing always reigns supreme: Synergy is found in Self-Balancing Systems.
Good for you, but I'm pretty sure most here don't care!
No, most just spew opinion with no experience or data to back it up.
Unless you are going to provide a way for people to validate who you are, and what you have "accomplished", that's all you're doing as well.
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Zynerji
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:50 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:48 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:47 pm


Good for you, but I'm pretty sure most here don't care!
No, most just spew opinion with no experience or data to back it up.
Unless you are going to provide a way for people to validate who you are, and what you have "accomplished", that's all you're doing as well.
Actually, I'm presenting a business solution with realistic outcomes. You are just making noise about something you dislike, and refuse to think critically about the benefits that this would bring.

Can you give a specific example as to how data sharing would damage the sport, or turn it into Euro NASCAR (like you falsely claim)?

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Mr. Fahrenheit
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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I think a technical forum is a bit of an echo chamber when it comes to what appeals to the mainstream...

We care how many fins a barge board has, the other 99.99999% make memes involving Darth Vader and a cheese grater... if they notice at all.

Standardising the things that don't really matter makes this forum less interesting, but I really think they've got the right idea for a) making the sport more attractive (lower friction to entry) for potential entrants b) bringing the field closer together which ultimately delivers a more entertaining product.

dans79
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:53 pm
Can you give a specific example as to how data sharing would damage the sport, or turn it into Euro NASCAR (like you falsely claim)?
As I've said several times now, F1 is first and foremost a Formula series, Though I'm really starting to believe very few people understand what that actually means.

In a Formula series a team at minimum designs and in some cases is required to manufacture all or substantial portions of their racing vehicle, doesn't mater if it's a car, boat or plane. In the Americas cup for example, most of the manufacturing is contracted out, but the teams still have custom unique designs. Thus, the competition is as much about the design and engineering as it is the actual racing.

In the case of F1, requiring data sharing removes 50% of the competition.
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dans79
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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Mr. Fahrenheit wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:02 pm
Standardising the things that don't really matter makes this forum less interesting,
As I mentioned earlier, teams that adopted carbon ceramic brakes and double clutch gear boxes had a significant advantage, so that area of development very much mattered.
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