Liberty is ruining F1

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Big Tea
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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dans79 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:01 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:55 pm
Mr. Fahrenheit wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:02 pm


I think what I'm trying to say is that Liberty isn't ruining F1. It's ruining what you think F1 should be.

Average Joe doesn't understand carbon ceramic brakes or double clutch gear boxes. He does understand that some teams are diabolically bad and only one of three teams will win. They're making the show - the racing, not the ridiculous technical complication - the priority.

The only audience that is at risk here is us and I'm OK with that. Just now it's interesting to no one.
This is the gist of it. Everyone has a different idea of the perfect F1, or indeed the acceptable F1
Most on here, as it is a F1 site, want deeper than those who are the target audience of Liberty/Sky etc. Who just want numbers during broadcast time who will pay for the privilege. I want it free to air.

Even on a site like this we would have a huge spread of what is good, indifferent and bad about F1.
I am glad to have a noise reduction while to others it is essential. I want to see nimble cars race irrespective of speed while other want 300+mph as a requirement for excitement.

We can not win, and Liberty cannot win because as the saying goes they can not be all things to all men (of all sexes)
I guess to me this was a downward spiral that started under Bernie, and Liberty is continuing down the same path.
  • Dumb every thing down, for the lowest of low brow casual fans, so they aren't intimidated.
  • Do everything they can to add fake drama for the casual fans with ultra short attention spans.
  • Do everything they can to cheapen the sport so some teams and some fans don't have to be exposed to the real world of social standings.
I feel very much the same way, but realise that for us to have F1 in any form, it has to survive.
I like my hobbies and my family, and a few beers, but I have to work in the real world to allow me to do the other things.

( Well, I did until I retired, now Screw Em, I do what I want, but know not to make any long term plans, same as F1 would need to keep in mind.)
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

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strad
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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I'm not a fan of Liberty but it's not on them. This sad situation has been growing for a couple of decades at least.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

joshuagore
joshuagore
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Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:01 am

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:31 pm
What I'm suggesting is simple R&D data as well as current design. If it was released at the start of the season, the summer break, then at the end of the season, it would keep everyone aligned.

Car settings, setup, and all of those are the fine tuning of the machine, and not to be shared. My sharing concept is more to make it non-helpful to be running thousands of iterations ahead of the next team because you can afford it and they cannot.


There are several amateur race series in the USA that requires you to sell your engine at the end of a race for a set price (like $500). You can put $30,000 into it, and win, but you have to sell it for $500 to any other competitor that wants it. This type of rule is what keeps those costs down, and I believe the mechanic can be harnessed in this instance.
The rules are specific so might as well get specific...
"R&D Data as well as current design" as someone who deals in that world to me that could mean many things, you tell me what isn't included.
CAD Repository including rev changes?
Documentation on repository including rev documentation?
Simulations on CAD?
Scale simulation data?
3d scan of car so only what you a viewer sees is what you can get?(p.s. other teams do this, photogrammetry, and the ability for compact very fast 3d scanning, they have cad of other teams cars to some degree)

If 80% of automotive racing is the car you may just be removing the teeth prototype cars bring to that 80%, hoping the extra 20% driver battle will create a better show. I think neutering development with shared R&D as you have described, even mid season, changes the marketing flex Ferrari or Mercedes could hope to have by participating in the show. Becoming formulaic is easy, maintaining an exciting Formula which tailors to a changing fan-base with varying technological or material interests is hard. I honestly would prefer gaining fans through novelty items which don't level the vehicle playing field but put more in the hands of the driver cough formula e cough.

Another thing to consider, motogp is just better racing, week in and week out, but not more viewership and the same steady plateau/coming decline seen in google trends searches for formula 1 or racing in general. In the west less people are driving, fewer young people are getting their license and automation is on the tips of their tongues, F1 could be chasing their tales for 20 years finding their next fans and some weird robot racing series could be all the rage with the kids and twice the viewership.

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strad
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Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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The FIA rules now dictate a very large percentage of the cars dimensions and many many parts of the design so how is that not spec already?
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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DiogoBrand
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Location: Brazil

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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I can already tell that everyone will stop watching F1 over the next years:
"F1 is boring now that they have standard brake calipers."
"What I was really interested in F1 was the development of the pedals and the steering column, and now they've taken it away."
"My favourite team can't even develop their fuel pump anymore, so what point is there in watching F1?"

Seriously, what the hell is Liberty Media thinking?

joshuagore
joshuagore
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Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:01 am

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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DiogoBrand wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:15 am
I can already tell that everyone will stop watching F1 over the next years:
"F1 is boring now that they have standard brake calipers."
"What I was really interested in F1 was the development of the pedals and the steering column, and now they've taken it away."
"My favourite team can't even develop their fuel pump anymore, so what point is there in watching F1?"

Seriously, what the hell is Liberty Media thinking?
Yah I don't have a problem with most of the stuff listed, my breaking point is tub, I thought others were going further.

joshuagore
joshuagore
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Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:01 am

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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strad wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:30 am
The FIA rules now dictate a very large percentage of the cars dimensions and many many parts of the design so how is that not spec already?
Each company has unique solutions to given problems, see wheelbase, packaging, see front wings this year, cooling tech, turbo packaging(early modern turbo era), cf transaxle housings... I think the minor differences are interesting, I understand others may not. Also consider most of the technologies that made these cars this quick, started with 1 team, then copied by others, how does this happen in a more spec future. How do cars improve?

Cause nascar is setup/driver/drafter/cheater racing. Is there an inbetween example? Just bs'ing here, I don't hold any 'sacred' convictions about this stuff.

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Andres125sx
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Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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dans79 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:01 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:55 pm
Mr. Fahrenheit wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:02 pm


I think what I'm trying to say is that Liberty isn't ruining F1. It's ruining what you think F1 should be.

Average Joe doesn't understand carbon ceramic brakes or double clutch gear boxes. He does understand that some teams are diabolically bad and only one of three teams will win. They're making the show - the racing, not the ridiculous technical complication - the priority.

The only audience that is at risk here is us and I'm OK with that. Just now it's interesting to no one.
This is the gist of it. Everyone has a different idea of the perfect F1, or indeed the acceptable F1
Most on here, as it is a F1 site, want deeper than those who are the target audience of Liberty/Sky etc. Who just want numbers during broadcast time who will pay for the privilege. I want it free to air.

Even on a site like this we would have a huge spread of what is good, indifferent and bad about F1.
I am glad to have a noise reduction while to others it is essential. I want to see nimble cars race irrespective of speed while other want 300+mph as a requirement for excitement.

We can not win, and Liberty cannot win because as the saying goes they can not be all things to all men (of all sexes)
I guess to me this was a downward spiral that started under Bernie, and Liberty is continuing down the same path.
  • Dumb every thing down, for the lowest of low brow casual fans, so they aren't intimidated.
  • Do everything they can to add fake drama for the casual fans with ultra short attention spans.
  • Do everything they can to cheapen the sport so some teams and some fans don't have to be exposed to the real world of social standings.
They could also repeat same mistakes wich caused CanAm´s collapse... maybe this time same causes will make the sport stronger... :roll:
  • Ignore small teams, if they don´t have money to compete they should not be in the series
  • Allow absurd investments in trivial parts wich do not add anything to the show, like fire extinghisers, wheel guns, etc.
  • Promote the strongest team wich win will keep receiving a lot more money than the rest, so the grid order is solidified and real competition is nullified
  • Keep an unfair money distribution wich prevent any new team or any midfielder to become a real competitor for the titles
This was the downward spiral ruining F1, Liberty is tryinig to stop it

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Phil
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Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 7:10 pm
I feel very much the same way, but realise that for us to have F1 in any form, it has to survive.
This is the quote of the topic IMO.

Many of the things that are happening/being changed is to ensure the survival of this sport and make it sustainable. We may not like it, but at least it ensures that it sticks around. Remain on the same path and it will self destruct, sadly. That's why there's a need for a strong regulator to come up with a viable business model that encourages players to participate, makes it interesting to watch (entertainment). For this to happen, it's important to look at it long-term and not simply find short-term solutions that will only postpone the problem or make it bigger.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

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FrukostScones
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 4:41 pm
Location: European Union

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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DiogoBrand wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:15 am
I can already tell that everyone will stop watching F1 over the next years:
"F1 is boring now that they have standard brake calipers."
"What I was really interested in F1 was the development of the pedals and the steering column, and now they've taken it away."
"My favourite team can't even develop their fuel pump anymore, so what point is there in watching F1?"

Seriously, what the hell is Liberty Media thinking?
yeah, and all the ugly 18 inch wheels, all look the same...
I can see through the shitty little brake disc, all look the same, ugly caliper too.. prob no funny drum fairings as well we like to look at in the cars section.. all look the same...
rear crash structure, like a piece of bread, all look the same...
funny dash on HAM's steering wheel, looks just like VETTEls, all look the same
why are the laptimes 3 sec slower than before, all cars are pretty heavy.
it for all the same.

some years later, all nose look the same....for aestethic and safety reasons, all tubs are spec, template wasn't enough , all airboxes look the same (PU is the same anyway), it was more efficient with th e budget cap already in place... Liberty could fulfill their sharholders instead of giving it to the teams...
now F1 was sold to some other private equity company.. who also bought Indycar.
CEO Mr. Charly Brown thought it would be great to have these two series merged to create a larger world wide audience...
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

Zynerji
Zynerji
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Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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joshuagore wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:04 am
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:31 pm
What I'm suggesting is simple R&D data as well as current design. If it was released at the start of the season, the summer break, then at the end of the season, it would keep everyone aligned.

Car settings, setup, and all of those are the fine tuning of the machine, and not to be shared. My sharing concept is more to make it non-helpful to be running thousands of iterations ahead of the next team because you can afford it and they cannot.


There are several amateur race series in the USA that requires you to sell your engine at the end of a race for a set price (like $500). You can put $30,000 into it, and win, but you have to sell it for $500 to any other competitor that wants it. This type of rule is what keeps those costs down, and I believe the mechanic can be harnessed in this instance.
The rules are specific so might as well get specific...
"R&D Data as well as current design" as someone who deals in that world to me that could mean many things, you tell me what isn't included.
CAD Repository including rev changes?
Documentation on repository including rev documentation?
Simulations on CAD?
Scale simulation data?
3d scan of car so only what you a viewer sees is what you can get?(p.s. other teams do this, photogrammetry, and the ability for compact very fast 3d scanning, they have cad of other teams cars to some degree)
Yes. Full CAD assemblies and Gcode as well. The only thing not shared is operating data.

This prevents:
Overspending
Cheating
Over iterating
Huge teams
Reverse engineering
Protests
Administrative penalties
4 second field spread

This adds:
Tighter field
Lower cost
Faster tech to market
Higher driver differentiator
Group pricing from 3rd party suppliers


I would go a step further by building a Cosmos blockchain to run a standardized 3d modeling/ simulating software to involve fans (help your favorite team crunch their FEA/CFD), full PLM, as well as the driving simulator (fans can participate with their team and a leaderboard for fastest laps/ car setups). You can sell access to the press for detailed models/ cfd to publish articles around, as well as run the F1TV app through the nodes for lag/buffer free streaming. Like a unified software that could then be sold to other series' as well.

There is so much this would change, but as always, the Devil lives in the details.

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strad
269
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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They could also repeat same mistakes wich caused CanAm´s collapse... maybe this time same causes will make the sport stronger...
Ignore small teams, if they don´t have money to compete they should not be in the series
Allow absurd investments in trivial parts wich do not add anything to the show, like fire extinghisers, wheel guns, etc.
Promote the strongest team wich win will keep receiving a lot more money than the rest, so the grid order is solidified and real competition is nullified
Keep an unfair money distribution wich prevent any new team or any midfielder to become a real competitor for the titles
This was the downward spiral ruining F1, Liberty is tryinig to stop it
=D> =D> =D> Image
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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Shrieker
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:41 pm

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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Standardized brake equipment ? That's the biggest bunch of bull I've ever heard.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk

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strad
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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Shrieker wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:09 pm
Standardized brake equipment ? That's the biggest bunch of bull I've ever heard.
You already have standard brakes. They all use one of two brands. What needs to change is the ducting that isn't really about cooling but rather yet another aerodynamic device.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

joshuagore
joshuagore
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Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:01 am

Re: Liberty is ruining F1

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strad wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 12:40 am
Shrieker wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:09 pm
Standardized brake equipment ? That's the biggest bunch of bull I've ever heard.
You already have standard brakes. They all use one of two brands. What needs to change is the ducting that isn't really about cooling but rather yet another aerodynamic device.
I think most people don't understand just how near the physical limits of the materials they are at and subsequently don't understand there is no room for development in some areas and there would be no improved show by letting them try and find it. That being said, is it only two brands? AP and Carbon Industries, also thought brembo and hitco were in there too.. then the calipers(endless, akebono, alcon), don't we have a few different manufacturers of those too? Not sure if over the past few years a few of those companies bowed out or not?