TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
wuzak
434
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Hi Guys, I've been awaty for a bit and have just caught up with this thread.

I saw a couple of older posts which I wanted to respond to:
henry wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 18:04
Keeping the revs high during braking would seem to be quite a challenge for the timing of gearshifts, with 5 or 6 downshifts in a couple of seconds. I wonder if the drivers “cheat” selecting the next downshift as soon as the previous one is made and relying on oversoeed protection to delay the shift.
If a gearshift is rejected, the driver has to perform the shift again. There is also a limit on the time between the request and the gearshift happening.

So shift delays aren't allowed.

saviour stivala wrote:
21 Apr 2019, 21:10
If your interpretations of the relationship possibilities between driver throttle/accelerator pedal travel position and the ICE throttle’s butterflies travel position is correct, and allowed by the rules, as I have said, a can of worms would be pushed in front of the teams to open and play with.
Tony Wright's book about the Ferrari F1-2000 revealed that the throttles on the V10 were operated differently on the left and right banks, with one leading the other, in order to improve driveability. The side that was leading would alternate so that wear in the engine would remain even.

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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@wuzaK. I was aware of what Peter Wright wrote in 2003, I ordered the book before it went out on sale through RET as advertised by them booking at a special reduced prize. The book was about the year 2000 FERRARI and went on sale in 2003. On 25 July 2018 on the FERRARI thread I answered a post of yours “FERRARI F1-2000 3L-V12 used alternating throttles openings between banks on fast acceleration to minimize the gyroscopic effect on the car. To this effect they were also constantly experimenting with various firing border”. This was quoted from an interview by Ian Bamsey in year 2000 of Paolo Martinelli at Silverstone in Bamsey’s back than famous half yearly engine outputs ‘guesstimations’. In 2001 FIA technical regulations from 5.7.2 onwards had already established the working relationship between throttle pedal and engine throttles. interesting to read those regulations. When the engine torque maps were a hot topic in 2012, the FIA issued a directive and made changes to the way teams were using said torque maps which closed a loophole exploited by red bull and Renault. an interesting read that helps understand engine torque maps and pedal maps use (engine torque and pedal map - technical f1 dictionary).
Last edited by saviour stivala on 21 May 2019, 06:43, edited 1 time in total.

Tommy Cookers
617
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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saviour stivala wrote:
20 May 2019, 13:24
....“FERRARI F1-2000 3L-V12 used alternating throttles openings between banks on fast acceleration to minimize the gyroscopic effect on the car. To this effect they were also constantly experimenting with various firing border”. This was quoted from an interview by Ian Bamsey in year 2000 of Paolo Martinelli at Silverstone in Bamsey’s back than famous half yearly engine outputs ‘guesstimations’. ...
Mr Bamsey (though diligent) is unqualified in matters of engineering and applied science - and has maybe shown it here
and Mr Martinelli is presumably somewhat unqualified in writing about such using the English language

cylinder cutting can produce an inertial reaction - but not a gyroscopic effect
to produce a gyro effect there must be a displacement of the crankshaft rotational axis
cylinder cutting won't displace that axis - it can only accelerate/decelerate the rotational rpm

or maybe what Mr Bamsey wrote is not what has been stated by s s ?

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
20 May 2019, 13:56
saviour stivala wrote:
20 May 2019, 13:24
....“FERRARI F1-2000 3L-V12 used alternating throttles openings between banks on fast acceleration to minimize the gyroscopic effect on the car. To this effect they were also constantly experimenting with various firing border”. This was quoted from an interview by Ian Bamsey in year 2000 of Paolo Martinelli at Silverstone in Bamsey’s back than famous half yearly engine outputs ‘guesstimations’. ...
Mr Bamsey (though diligent) is of course unqualified in matters of engineering and applied science - and has shown it here
and Mr Martinelli is presumably somewhat unqualified in writing about such using the English language

cylinder cutting can produce an inertial reaction - but not a gyroscopic effect
to produce a gyro effect there must be a displacement of the crankshaft rotational axis
cylinder cutting won't displace that axis - it can only accelerate/decelerate the rotational rpm
Ian Bamsey (the interviewer) in question is a highly regarded person in race engine matters. Paolo Martinelli was the architect behind the FERRARI 3L-V10. Cylinder engine cutting wasn't mentioned in the interview. Those reading are free to judge the level of competence between said two people and a MR TOMMY COOKERS. happy voting.
Last edited by saviour stivala on 20 May 2019, 14:20, edited 1 time in total.

Tommy Cookers
617
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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I have explained how what you have written is wrong
you have not attempted to explain how it is right

how is cylinder cutting an illegitimate summary of the effects of throttle cutting on alternating banks ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 20 May 2019, 14:25, edited 1 time in total.

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
20 May 2019, 14:16
I have explained how what you have written is wrong
you have not attempted to explain how that it is right
Let's leave judgement of what was said to those reading us. happy voting.

wuzak
434
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
20 May 2019, 14:16
I have explained how what you have written is wrong
you have not attempted to explain how it is right

how is cylinder cutting an illegitimate summary of the effects of throttle cutting on alternating banks ?

The throttle wasn't cutting, one was being advanced ahead of the other.

For example, ,the left bank throttles were 5° in advance of the right bank. So when the left bank throttles reached 50%, the right bank were at 45%. When the left bank reached 100% the right bank was at 95%. The right bank would continue on to 100% after that. (Just an example, not actual numbers.)

I am not sure how that made any difference to gyroscopic forces in the engine, since the engine simply accelerated slightly slower than otherwise.

roon
412
Joined: 17 Dec 2016, 19:04

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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They may have been trying to describe reaction torque or as tommy suggested: dulling throttle onset. The gyro effects are there but it relates to rotating masses not cylinder firing. One could cut all cylinders or fire all cylinders--the rotational inertial will remain the same and will remain proportional to the wheelspeed.

Tommy Cookers wrote:
20 May 2019, 14:16
I have explained how what you have written is wrong
you have not attempted to explain how that it is right
He cannot. He can only regurgutate press technobabble in attempts to appear intelligent.

saviour stivala wrote:
20 May 2019, 14:13
Ian Bamsey (the interviewer) in question is a highly regarded person in race engine matters. Paolo Martinelli was the architect behind the FERRARI 3L-V10. Cylinder engine cutting wasn't mentioned in the interview. Those reading are free to judge the level of competence between said two people and a MR TOMMY COOKERS. happy voting.
Vote Tommy 2019. You worship credentials and have seemingly little understanding of fundamentals. When challenged you become insecure and resort to ad hominems. A consistent trend across different threads.

Dr. Acula
46
Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 13:23

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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saviour stivala wrote:
20 May 2019, 14:13
Tommy Cookers wrote:
20 May 2019, 13:56
saviour stivala wrote:
20 May 2019, 13:24
....“FERRARI F1-2000 3L-V12 used alternating throttles openings between banks on fast acceleration to minimize the gyroscopic effect on the car. To this effect they were also constantly experimenting with various firing border”. This was quoted from an interview by Ian Bamsey in year 2000 of Paolo Martinelli at Silverstone in Bamsey’s back than famous half yearly engine outputs ‘guesstimations’. ...
Mr Bamsey (though diligent) is of course unqualified in matters of engineering and applied science - and has shown it here
and Mr Martinelli is presumably somewhat unqualified in writing about such using the English language

cylinder cutting can produce an inertial reaction - but not a gyroscopic effect
to produce a gyro effect there must be a displacement of the crankshaft rotational axis
cylinder cutting won't displace that axis - it can only accelerate/decelerate the rotational rpm
Ian Bamsey (the interviewer) in question is a highly regarded person in race engine matters. Paolo Martinelli was the architect behind the FERRARI 3L-V10. Cylinder engine cutting wasn't mentioned in the interview. Those reading are free to judge the level of competence between said two people and a MR TOMMY COOKERS. happy voting.
From a physical standpoint, Tommy Cookers is right, what you wrote makes no sense what so ever.
Although there's undeniably a gyroscopic effect from the rotation of the crankshaft for instance, there's no way you can influence it by simply moving the throttles in a funny way.
The gyroscopic effect is purely determind by angular velocity and moment of inertia of a rotating object. You can't change the moment of inertia of the crankshaft...at least not while the car is racing around on a track and although the engine is reving up and down, there's very little you can do to alter that in a usefull way to reduce or increase the gyroscopic effect because the engine rotation also determinds how fast the car is going.

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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It is a shame that for defending a technical opinion expressed on a forum the level of competence of two such respected men in formula one engine circles is questioned and resorted too. As is also the defending of such actions.

trinidefender
317
Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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saviour stivala wrote:
20 May 2019, 19:43
It is a shame that for defending a technical opinion expressed on a forum the level of competence of two such respected men in formula one engine circles is questioned and resorted too. As is also the defending of such actions.
Their level of competence wasn't so much questioned as their level to explain the reasoning in English behind doing something was questioned. Neither TC, nor Dracula (tis funny) said that the concept of alternating throttle openings wasn't used. They said that it won't have a gyroscopic effect. There may have been a reason why alternating throttle openings was used but simply due to physics, it can't have been to, "minimise gyroscopic effect."

Don't twist people's words to try to discredit their argument.

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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I do not need too as what was said is still out there.

Dr. Acula
46
Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 13:23

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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saviour stivala wrote:
20 May 2019, 19:43
It is a shame that for defending a technical opinion expressed on a forum the level of competence of two such respected men in formula one engine circles is questioned and resorted too. As is also the defending of such actions.
I don't question the level of competence of Bamsey or Martinelly. I simply question the plausability of your statement, because it would violate multiple laws of physics.
The original meaning was maybe lost in translation, or they used the wrong terminoligy, have you thought of this? you know journalists...ask them what's the difference between reaction forces and the gyroscopic effects and you probably got very funny answers, probably very wrong, but funny none the less.

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subcritical71
90
Joined: 17 Jul 2018, 20:04
Location: USA-Florida

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Anyone taken a look at the recent papers from Albert Boretti (http://profiles.sae.org/79584416411/)? Most are behind the SAE paywall, but some are still available for review. I don't know if this guy is repeating what is already publicly available or is doing original work.

https://www.mdpi.com/2411-9660/3/1/11/htm
https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j ... 8-0171.pdf


paywalled;
https://www.sae.org/publications/techni ... 9-26-0045/

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henry
324
Joined: 23 Feb 2004, 20:49
Location: England

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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subcritical71 wrote:
19 Sep 2019, 17:48
Anyone taken a look at the recent papers from Albert Boretti (http://profiles.sae.org/79584416411/)? Most are behind the SAE paywall, but some are still available for review. I don't know if this guy is repeating what is already publicly available or is doing original work.

https://www.mdpi.com/2411-9660/3/1/11/htm
https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j ... 8-0171.pdf


paywalled;
https://www.sae.org/publications/techni ... 9-26-0045/
Thanks @subcritical71 these look very interesting.
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Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus