F1 tyre slip angle?

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sdimm
1
Joined: 30 Sep 2008, 19:49

F1 tyre slip angle?

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Does anyone know at which slipangle the f1 tyres operate in? I Would guess 2-4 degrees or something.
// Mattias

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nae
nae
0
Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 00:56

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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I believe 5 degrees

for no other reason than i read it somewhere
which i cant remember so it might be a dream
or just something i made up

dont believe me
..?

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sdimm
1
Joined: 30 Sep 2008, 19:49

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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nae wrote:I believe 5 degrees

for no other reason than i read it somewhere
which i cant remember so it might be a dream
or just something i made up

dont believe me
hehe =)

I know that for instance the wtcc cars tyres and also porsche and so on have a 6 degree angle and they slide quite alot.
// Mattias

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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I don't know if this adjusts to F1 reality, but it allows me to walk through I think I know, to see if someone can correct any mistakes. It's Pacejka curves for Racer Free. http://www.racer.nl/dl_beta.htm (includes a Pacejka curve editor).

SA means slip angle (angle between the heading of the wheel and its velocity). The lateral force (red curve) peaks around 6 degrees of SA.
Image

LONG EDIT FOR DUMMIES LIKE ME:

If I'm not wrong (and I've been corrected before. :)) the slip angle is the angle between the wheel velocity (or the direction in which the car is moving) and the wheel heading.

When you steer a bit, the wheel does not follow the road precisely. This difference between where the car is moving and where the tyre is pointing, or slip angle, is what "creates" the lateral force you need to turn.

Conversely, when you accelerate, the wheel turns a little faster than the speed at wich the vehicle is moving. This difference, or slip ratio, is what pushes you and accelerates the car. In the black curve the peak is around SR of 0.1. This means that the wheel is moving at 110% ground speed. For each 10 turns of the wheel, it slips one (so, I imagine it's squeaking a bit).

The comments on the curves say that F1 tyres have a peak lateral force at 6 degrees. The author adds that it is a rather "responsive" tyre, as regular cars have slip angles of 10-15 degrees.

This means that tyres whose lateral force peak around 5 degrees, as nae suggests, are rather "jerky". With relatively small movements of the steering wheel you're thrown sideways.

This also means that when you move the steering wheel, you feel it "heavy" rather quickly. In the previous figure you can see the "momentum" Mz on the steering wheel plotted in the green curve: it's the "force feedback" you feel in your gaming steering wheel.

It peaks around 2-3 degrees of SA (peak of the green curve). Notice that the peak of the lateral force (red curve) happens at a larger SA of 6 degrees, which means that with this particular curve you should twist the wheel until you pass the "hard point", drifting a little (4 degrees), to get maximum lateral force.

If you turn the wheel enough (over 12 degrees of SA), the green curve crosses the horizontal axle. You get a negative feedback: the wheel "wishes" to turn more by itself, you've kind of locked the steering wheel.

Finally, the last thing I get from the figure is that there is no precise "slip angle" that belongs to the tyre. The 5-6 degrees figure is simply a peak in the lateral force.

So, if you go over the peak lateral force because you turn the wheel too much, it's not like the wheel stops delivering force at all. There is a residual force, even if you're wearing the wheel "too much".

Depending on how fast the red curve "goes down" the tyre is more or less forgiving: you won't slide that much if you overreact to the road.

For example, this curve, from EA F1-2002, also given at the Racer site, is very forgiving: it stays at the top after the peak and only gradually the force diminishes. You can move a lot the wheel without locking the wheels.

Image

I don't know if this means that some simulators can "dumb" your senses, but I suspect so. :)
Ciro

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sdimm
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Joined: 30 Sep 2008, 19:49

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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Ciro Pabón wrote:I don't know if this adjusts to F1 reality, it's Pajecka curves for Racer Free.

SA means slip angle (angle between the heading of the wheel and its velocity). SR is slip ratio (wheel speed vs ground speed). The lateral force (red curve) peaks around 6 degrees of SA. http://www.racer.nl/reference/pacejka.htm
Image

The comments on the curves say that 6 degrees is a rather "responsive" tyre and that normal cars have slip angles of 10-15 degrees.
Intresting.

6 degrees seems so be what the slicks racingtyres on sportscars has. I talked to Richard Rydells, who drives in the WTCC World touring var championship, engineer who also gave me the answer that slicks usually have 6 degrees and 10-15 on trackday tyres.
// Mattias

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Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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Why do you want to know?

Bet on it being much less than 6. Around half of that.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

zac510
zac510
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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They probably don't talk too much about slip angle and just talk about the force at the tyre.
Although it's my understanding that the peak angle is still quite low and this might be related to all the yaw straightening appendages.
No good turn goes unpunished.

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sdimm
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Joined: 30 Sep 2008, 19:49

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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Jersey Tom wrote:Why do you want to know?

Bet on it being much less than 6. Around half of that.

Hi,


I wanted to know since it´s possible to modify the tyres in various racingsimulators. I tried and change the slip curve on the tyres of a formula1 car in the simulator rfactor from 10 degrees of peak slip angle to 3-6 and it did a hugh difference in the way the car behaves since you don´t have to "slide" it as much now. It became very very responsive and easy to drive fast with but harder to drive really really fast with.

I once heard that Schumacher had said that having the tyres and sliding the car the right amount is the most important thing that a really good, f1 driver, is good at.

And it´s not just about sliding when your in the corner but also "slide" or scrubb the tyres at braking. Meaning that it´s also important to, under braking almost lock the wheel but still having the tyre on it´s optimum scrubb or slide.
That´s why it´s also the corner-entry that it important to get right to be fast around a lap. Exit of a corner no matter what what car it is is not so difficult but having a high apex speed and still beeing able to take the corner is.

I actually talked to a F1 testdriver about this, think it´s really intresting. =)

// Mattias
// Mattias

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Downforce
Downforce
2
Joined: 10 Feb 2006, 01:17
Location: Belgrade, Serbia

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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Goodyear F1 front tire...
Image
Peak is at 6 degrees.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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I wouldnt 100% trust that data. In any event, I'd still expect a F1 slick to have higher cornering stiffness and/or peak earlier.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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I knew it was because a racing simulator!
Everybody answers these kind of questions but nobody answered mine :(

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5913

What can I do to trace a homemade Pacejka graph myself with only a couple of tires?
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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Thank you very much, Downforce and welcome to the forum. Do you have any idea what's F2? Normal force?

I've never seen a 25.0 x 9.0 tyre reference, btw. :)

Sdimm, I agree with your idea. On the track you want the tyres to sound (squeak), but not too much. In my case, it depends a lot of my ear, that's why simulators annoy me.

JerseyTom, why half that amount? Will you join the "6 degrees party" or do you have any other input for us? ;)

Belatti, nobody answered because we have no idea, I imagine. The commercial devices to measure the slip angle cost an eye.

You can find several devices for the measurement, of course. For example, http://www.m-techautomotive.co.uk/Slip% ... sensor.htm

There are some papers about slip angle estimation, here is a PDF you'll like: Estimation of side slip in vehicles.

I quote: "Researchers have looked at the idea of installing freely steered castors (7) on the front and rear axles. As the vehicle moves, the angles made by the castors with the vehicle centerline can be used to estimate tire slip angles."
Ciro

zac510
zac510
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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Jersey Tom, that Goodyear tyre graph would have to be 10 years old at least! Plus you can't see how the graph goes after 6 - it could drop like Niagara :)
No good turn goes unpunished.

Downforce
Downforce
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Joined: 10 Feb 2006, 01:17
Location: Belgrade, Serbia

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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Ciro Pabón wrote:Thank you very much, Downforce and welcome to the forum. Do you have any idea what's F2? Normal force?
Thanks for the welcome Ciro. It's Fz - normal force.
zac510 wrote:Jersey Tom, that Goodyear tyre graph would have to be 10 years old at least! Plus you can't see how the graph goes after 6 - it could drop like Niagara.
This is true. I would also expect higher cornering stifness for present F1 tyres. So my guess would be that peak is somewhere between 3-4 degrees. Couldn't find better picture that shows shape of the curve after 6 degrees. Sorry for that.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: F1 tyre slip angle?

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That plot is from RCVD, which is copyright '95. Not jumping on the 6deg train. Trust me, I'd be very surprised if the peak was as high as 6 :) Conceivable I guess, but I doubt it... for what its worth that plot looks like its from a very cold tire.

In any event, to get a car to handle right in a sim, the peak grip level isn't the most critical item. Cornering stiffness vs load and camber is huge. Aligning torque buildup and dropoff is pretty important as well. Those two are going to make a big difference in how the car handles and performs at the limit.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.