2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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Slo Poke
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Slo Poke » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:29 am

No-one is infallible, mishaps and brinkmanship don’t mix and end in Road Rage! Clip them both around the ear and tell them to grow up.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Jolle » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:35 am

Slo Poke wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:29 am
No-one is infallible, mishaps and brinkmanship don’t mix and end in Road Rage! Clip them both around the ear and tell them to grow up.
Both? You have me confused... who else?

tnajner
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by tnajner » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:44 am

With hindsight, I think the best what Vettel could do was to let the car spun and by that he take out hamilton as well. Ferrari would win via Leclerc, everybody would happy and there would not be such an argument. :)) Fans of both teams would be happy, it would racing incident. Maybe thats better ending for certain fans of certain non-italian team.

One thing is rule as it is written and the other is racing as some older fans know it. With this kind policing, it is racing for puppies. Really, F1 has been getting softer and weaker over the past 10-12 years. Also this F1technical is continuously transforming into fans wars. Certain threads are not readable anymore.

GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by GPR-A » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:48 am

Jolle wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:35 am
Slo Poke wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:29 am
No-one is infallible, mishaps and brinkmanship don’t mix and end in Road Rage! Clip them both around the ear and tell them to grow up.
Both? You have me confused... who else?
Vettel and the Steward.

Jolle
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Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Jolle » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:53 am

tnajner wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:44 am
With hindsight, I think the best what Vettel could do was to let the car spun and by that he take out hamilton as well. Ferrari would win via Leclerc, everybody would happy and there would not be such an argument. :)) Fans of both teams would be happy, it would racing incident. Maybe thats better ending for certain fans of certain non-italian team.

One thing is rule as it is written and the other is racing as some older fans know it. With this kind policing, it is racing for puppies. Really, F1 has been getting softer and weaker over the past 10-12 years. Also this F1technical is continuously transforming into fans wars. Certain threads are not readable anymore.
I like that they try to ban nasty racing. I felt robbed in 1990 Suzuka and 1994 Australia and I'm glad this kind of racing is something of the past. There are still enough opportunities to have close racing, on the limit but not by forcing someone in the wall.

Wynters
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Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Wynters » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:55 am

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:17 am
Wynters wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:09 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:57 pm


If it was a bad idea, it wouldn't have forced Hamilton to pit. As everyone would have known it was a bad idea
In which case, Hamilton pits 4-5 laps later and is now stuck behind Leclerc whilst Vettel drives off into the distance. Net win for Ferrari, even after Hamilton passes Leclerc to take 2nd back. After all, who would be pressuring a slow-at-the-end Leclerc for 3rd? Bottas? He couldn't even stay in Leclerc's pit window.
How does Hamilton end up behind Leclerc ? you've lost me. If the undercut doesn't work then Leclerc cant force Hamilton to pit, so if Hamilton doesn't pit how does he end up behind Leclerc.
Apologies if I wasn't clear. The undercut clearly gave the driver on the road an advantage in the short term but penalised them in the long term on tyre life. It's this balance of benefit/loss that I was referring to.

This was a three car race for the podium positions so Leclerc was available to be used as a pawn to force Mercedes to compromise their strategy in order to prevent him gaining a position on Hamilton and slowing him for a number of the following laps (allowing Vettel to drive off into the distance without any pressure).

Clearly, the undercut was faster as it allowed Vettel to stay ahead of Hamilton, despite the latter having a faster car.

However, having rewatched the relevant portions of the race, I don't think Leclerc had a sufficient traffic window to make it work, so question answered.

Wynters
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Wynters » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:10 pm

LM10 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:58 am
If you think that the space Hamilton left was enough, then it's you who needs to go back and watch the Monaco race again. It's visible there was not enough space, but on top of that the line Hamilton forced Ric into was slippery because it was wet, as you've mentioned already. Ric even slided a bit.

To sum it up: Hamilton made a mistake, Ric kept his racing line, but was not only cut by Hamilton, but also forced to the wet side of the track (making him slide) and not given enough space too.

Yea... this surely was a completely different kind of incident and Hamilton was doing everything right, as ever. Just because.
Could you please define how much space is 'enough' space as Hamilton left significantly more than a car's width between himself and the edge of the track. Out of interest, how much width did Vettel leave between himself and the edge of the track in Canada?

komninosm
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Location: Macedonia

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by komninosm » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:10 pm

V12-POWER wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:45 am
komninosm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:00 am
V12-POWER wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:40 am


Good job comparing a 100% deliberate crash that is obvious and happened on track, also dont forget it was a move for the championship. Vettel movements to the right don't seem deliberate at all, specially because his counter steering was almost full lock and the rear wasn't planted to the ground, It all happened on the transition of grass to the asphalt, when you make such movements with the steering wheel it means one thing, the car wasn't there. So whoever who is saying he went straight to the wall on purpose is wrong. Or do you really think you're going to go almost full lock to veer to one side? Really? People here underestimate these cars or think they have 900 degree steering. So sad for a "technical" site

I mean, im not a fan of anyone myself but damn some people here do like to say nonsense things.

The only reasonable argument is safe rejoining. This doesnt change the fact current rules are silly if they wont allow situations like this one, in a racing sport, might as well have an "excuse me" button to let other drivers pass "safely"
Spare us your [sad for a "technical" site] crocodile tears.
You know damn well if Vettel did not accelerate so much right upon entering the racetrack he would be able to enter it safely and not oversteer so much. Also his last move to the right was very deliberate indeed and meant to push Hamilton to the wall and crash if necessary. Vettel has done this before, even in the pits once.
(Also note I didn't say this incident alone was equivalent to Schumacher's, I said there's a pattern there of Vettel making bad choices and that FIA punishments today are rather light compared to the past. Some commentators seem to think the opposite, but they are wrong.)

Even the maligned Schumacher eventually admitted guilt and apologized. Whether it was for pushing Barrichelo to the wall or for 1997 controversy or 1994. Vettel has not been punished properly and hasn't made amends.
In my book Vettel is a childish black sheep and not one of the greats. And he's leading many fans down a dark path too.
Where did Vettel accelerate on the grass? I can’t seem to hear it watching the onboard. If he did try to go faster then we should be able to hear it.
Where did I say Vettel accelerated on the grass?!
I said:
"if Vettel did not accelerate so much right upon entering the racetrack"
Nope you're just using a fallacious strawman.
And yes, at that speed it would have been trivial for Vettel (a driver of his level) to enter the track safely and not go on the outside lane if he just accelerated a bit less as was proper for a re-entry that is challenged by another car alongside.

waynes
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by waynes » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:12 pm

Are we going to talk about Ferrari hanging Leclerc out to dry again with a garbage strategy?

No? cool

Slo Poke
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Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:14 am

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Slo Poke » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:13 pm

Jolle wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:35 am
Slo Poke wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:29 am
No-one is infallible, mishaps and brinkmanship don’t mix and end in Road Rage! Clip them both around the ear and tell them to grow up.
Both? You have me confused... who else?
Vettel is not infallible and fell off the field of battle and rejoined in a manner that only he will ever truly understand. Hamilton, being the seasoned racer that he is, identified a situation where a spot of brinkmanship might cancel out the Ferrari driver’s advantage so that he could win without having to overstretched his engine.
First and foremost don’t ever underestimate either of these two drivers, mainly because they ‘both’ work with afore-thought and not as we do with hindsight.

komninosm
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Location: Macedonia

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by komninosm » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:18 pm

ringo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:45 am
There was no inside line for Hamilton to take. This is BS from Vettel and i am suprised people are believing him on this.
Watch an overhead video. Hamilton would be an idiot to drive towards a car that is sliding onto the track.
A left turn from Hamilton would have resulted in a nasty accident in all iterations of whatever vettel would do coming onto the track.
Hamilton did the best thing of driving away from Vettel. The problem is vettel drove towards hamilton. So much so that Hamilton had to hit the brakes.
If you force another driver to hit the brakes on the racing line on corner exit, clearly that's an unsafe situation hence the penalty.
Why is the discussion still going on about something so clear as day?
Vettel ballsed up the race as usual when he has Hamilton behind. We have seen this so many times. If he didn't crack on lap 48, there were over 20 laps for him to crack. It was inevitable.
Yeah, I've said that exact same thing. If Hamilton was prescient enough to guess Vettel would squeeze him on the wall and tried to take an inside line he would have to slow so much to not hit Vettel's rear and compromise his entry and exit of the S-turns so much he would come out even slower. while Vettel makes use of the whole raceline up to the wall to accelerate faster and sooner.
It's victim blaming 101.

komninosm
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Location: Macedonia

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by komninosm » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:23 pm

Ringleheim wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:48 am
I like to see drivers encouraged to mix it up on track, but this does the opposite.
This type of argument keeps cropping up and it's fallacious.
If you allow the defender of a position to re-enter the track however they feel like, how does this encourage "mixing it up on track" or overtaking attempts?
It does the opposite clearly. People are so blinded by ferrari red colored glasses and bias they cannot see obvious logical fallacies.

FrukostScones
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by FrukostScones » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:31 pm

waynes wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:12 pm
Are we going to talk about Ferrari hanging Leclerc out to dry again with a garbage strategy?

No? cool
yes lets talk about that, Ferrari made themsleves fools again.
LEC would have had a shot at HAM without that bad call.
Finishing races is important, but it is more important to f*ck Tory scum.

Slo Poke
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Slo Poke » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:31 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:48 am
Jolle wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:35 am
Slo Poke wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:29 am
No-one is infallible, mishaps and brinkmanship don’t mix and end in Road Rage! Clip them both around the ear and tell them to grow up.
Both? You have me confused... who else?
Vettel and the Steward.
I don’t want to be disrespectful GPR-A but would mind reading the reply I made to Jolle! Thank you in advance.

komninosm
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Location: Macedonia

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by komninosm » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:34 pm

djos wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:44 am
Carl Mccoy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:43 am
Bottas 2.0 is just illusion.
Even Ricciardo was surprised he could keep Bottas behind him for so long. He's really far too timid to be in a top car!
Riccardo moved twice blocking Bottas in two instances, so shouldn't be talking about this, as he escaped a clear penalty.
Bottas I think goes too soon in car save mode and thinks of future races when he feels he has little chance to better his position. He's not as bad as people say. Well clearly as he won races and pole positions already and is 2nd in ranking.
People just like to join the band wagon of ridiculing him. He's no Hamilton, but at least he makes less mistakes than Vettel at this point, and is more likeable.