bonjon1979 wrote: ↑
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:40 pm
hollus wrote: ↑
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:32 pm
I'll try to add a couple of new points of view here:
First, I think Vettel did try to cut in front of Hamilton to force him to slow down and ruin the pass. I don't think he tried to crash or force a crash, just to squeeze enough for Hamilton to hesitate. Had he succeeded in leaving exactly 1.1 car width´s space there, he would have looked like a hero and kept the position with Hamilton still lifting off as he would be mostly on the grass and unsure of how small the gap was going to get. So it was a valid, cheeky, instinctive maneuver that actually could have worked out for Vettel.
As it was, he left 0.9 car width´s, and IMO, that sealed the Stewards´s decision. One can only measure so precisely in tenths of a second, and this one came just in the wrong side of 1.0.
A different take: Maybe Vettel could have kept his car more to the left (the Stewards seem to think so). But let's say that he couldn't, that the trajectory taken was indeed the tightest possible and the earliest possible point to regain proper control of the car. It is of course possible, but then he was extremely lucky to regain control with the car pointed straight and the outside wheels exactly on the kerb, allowing him to smoothly apply throttle again. He might have been lucky or he might have aimed there, and we might never know which it was, but to my eyes, that corner exit is way, way too smooth and precise to be forced or accidental.
And talking about Leclerc and Ferrari: Once Vettel did get his 5 second penalty, am I the only one to think that if he could not get away from Hamilton, he could at least have slowed down? It would have been a team decision: slow down enough (he kind of did anyways, be it anger of fuel saving or something else) that Hamilton would have to either try to pass on track, still risky, or accept being pushed into Leclerc's view, which might have yielded a Leclerc victory after all (do I even dare to say that it would have been a Ferrari victory?). But, being controversial now, the fact that Ferrari "forgot" to tell Leclerc about Vettel´s penalty probably speaks volumes about Ferrari's concept of "team" right now.
I would say he left a lot less than .9 of a cars width. The measurement is taken to the edge of the track, not to the wall beyond the track. So he left him about a foot of space as Hamilton had to go out over the kerbs to avoid him. In terms of consistency, here is the Verstappen/Kimi incident from Japan last year. It's almost identical in how it played out and in this case Ferrari complained to the stewards and Verstappen got a 5 second penalty.
https://twitter.com/f1/status/104885360 ... 72?lang=en
Yup, agreed really. The reason for the penalty is less that he left him less than a cars width on the track which he came no where near achieving, it's that he left him less than a cars width into the wall. As others have stated, you can see on the video the snap is early, he catches it and at this point no penalty, but then he both accelerates and is turning sharply away from the wall as his angle on entering the track had he gone straight would have taken him directly into the wall. So he's turning left and imo completely in control. IF he sees Hamilton coming specifically or just uses common sense and assumes the guy who was <1 second behind him for lap after lap was going to be pushing him on the racing line, as his line starts to take him more parallel with the wall he opens up the steering wheel when he could have continued turning left (as he had been with no control issues since the snap) and even just maintained that current gap to the wall if not opened it up to be reasonable. Instead he opened the steering wheel and closed the gap and pushed Hamilton, now alongside off track and ever closer to the wall.
From what I understand the stewards gave the penalty because of what they saw Vettel doing on the steering wheel and for me that can only mean that they agree that once he was under control he had the opportunity to turn tighter and leave more space but chose not to.
The fans reaction to it is dismaying. A for me fairly obviously dirty move that actively stopped what would have been great racing from Hamilton, that is piling on pressure for laps till Vettel made a mistake and left an opening. Apparently this is what everyone wants, great racing, but when Vettel does something unfair I think because people are fed up at Ferrari's lack of execution leading to Hamilton and Mercedes dominance, they wanted a Ferrari win and so many are seeing this incident in an exceptionally biased way. Sky's coverage of it has been embarrassing and feeding into the frenzied response and fans are all up in arms because they seem to be ignoring the facts. Oh he lost a bit of control so it's a racing incident (something for which one driver isn't wholly or majority at fault for... what) and he had no choice but to go that wide.
It's been amazing watching the mental gymnastics going on with this situation. FIA ruined the race because they stopped Hamilton having a fair chance to overtake.... but apparently Vettel doing that and going unpunished wouldn't have ruined the races one chance for that overtake to happen. Brundle with his years of "where's the gravel, mistakes should be punished" morphs into "why should he be punished, if there was a huge tarmac run off he'd have floored it and stayed ahead"... ignoring that had he done that he would have deserved a penalty for gaining an advantage anyway.
sosic2121 wrote: ↑
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:36 pm
komninosm wrote: ↑
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:03 pm
sosic2121 wrote: ↑
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:53 am
I guess any discussion with Hamilton fans is pointless
Well yes, if you don't want to take off ferrari red colored glasses of bias and discuss civilly and with limited bias then, yes, discussion is pretty pointless for you.
Can you give me a straight reason why this move was penalty and Monaco 2016 wasn't? IMHO It's EXACTLY the same.
Can you give a reason why Mexico 2016 T1 wasn't a penalty?
And finally why Germany 2018 wasn't a penalty for Hamilton?
If anyone of you Hamilton fans says that he should have received a penalty in Monaco, I will say that Seb got what he deserved. Then we can discuss why do we (maybe) have double standards, or something else.
Look at a reverse angle of Monaco 2016, Ricciardo had like a car width + 2 feet or even more than that. He panicked backed out and lost a bit of grip in the wet from doing so. THere was WAY more than enough space. Like ridiculously more.
Mexico, he locked up hard, if he'd turned hard to the right he'd have come on in the racing line of the entire pack, coming on there would have caused a MASSIVE accident. When he rejoined at the next corner which would be vastly safer he immediately backed off to close the gap he gained on Rosberg. It's that simple, he went out of his way to give back the advantage and Rosberg was less than a second behind him when the safety car went out a couple corners later (I forget what for though tbh).
Germany, someone created a nice long list of penalties people got for the same thing, everyone else got a reprimand for anything similar to what he did, only people who entered the pits late or crossed the white lines early on exit (which includes Hamilton in the past) got a penalty beyond a reprimand. His penalty was directly in line with how everyone else was treated.