2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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bonjon1979
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by bonjon1979 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:32 pm

Jolle wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:24 pm
bonjon1979 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:57 pm
Jolle wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:46 pm


On F1TV you have onboard with sound (and a good view on his shift lights).
He was off throttle on the gras (would have been a good spin otherwise) but when he straightened out the car back on track, gave it power again and kept steering to the wall, closing the gap.

So he was in control and squeezed Hamilton or he was putting power on the rears while still not in control. But that’s more Grosjean’s thing...

Anyway. If he followed the rules of engagement, Hamilton would of passed him.

So Vettel took a good race away with his nasty tactics.

Hamilton wasn’t always as precise as in recent years. I remember a hefty crash with Pérez, few with Massa... but he didn’t blame anyone but himself and sharpened himself. Now we look at Vettel. All incidents where he ran into other drivers, it’s always their fault... and his fans provide the perfect supporters for his claims. This way he’s never going to beat Hamilton (or Verstappen in the near future who has better self reflection then Vettel)
I think Vettel's done. I can't see him going for many more years, he just seems fed up with it and not enjoying himself anymore. A shame really.
I think his future (with Ferrari) will depend on how fast Leclerc will develop this and coming season. If he can’t up his game it might be game over or, if Verstappen leaves RedBull, a possible return to the mothership for a few years.
Verstappen to Merc, Hamilton to Ferrari would be interesting to watch.

TAG
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by TAG » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:38 pm

Schuttelberg wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:32 am
sAx wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:11 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gykAh22nbM

A further perspective from Rosberg.
Rosberg has been taking shots at Hamilton and Vettel since the time he took his ball and went home. He's one of those proper losers who lucks into something in life and then judges people to death. If he could do a vlog on Austria 2016 and the last lap, we could learn valuable lessons. I particularly struggle in turning right on the roads these days. May be I need to look at Vettel in 2018.
That's rich, you obviously don't remember that Vettel couldn't leave Red Bull fast enough after Ricciardo's 14 season there. He left, yeah it's been discussed here quite a lot. Address his commentary not the fact that you don't like him. What he said about feeling the relentless pressure from behind from Hamilton, and not being able to make a single mistake... maybe address that?

:P

You're diluting yourself if you can't or are unwilling acknowledge his only weakness IMO, when he is desperate, he falls apart and to compound that weakness he then has these ridiculous petulant emotional outburst. Exactly what we saw on Sunday and what we've seen on a number of other Sundays in the past. Other than that, he's a four time WDC and a very talented driver. especially in qualifying.
Last edited by TAG on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Countdown to 91: 10 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by NathanOlder » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:41 pm

On the whole 'out of control' excuse being used

How about Hungary 2011. Hamilton leading the race , spins on a damp track while on slicks at the chicane. Backmarker Paul Di Resta takes avoiding action and takes to the grass as Lewis recovers from an actual spin.

The penalty for that..... Drive through penalty (about 20 seconds lost)
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GPR -A
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by GPR -A » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:45 pm

Jolle wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:24 pm
I think his future (with Ferrari) will depend on how fast Leclerc will develop this and coming season. If he can’t up his game it might be game over or, if Verstappen leaves RedBull, a possible return to the mothership for a few years.
Verstappen would leave because Red Bull can't make a championship winning car. That means Vettel wouldn't want to go there either. He would rather prefer to retire as a proud 4 time WDC.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Jolle » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:59 pm

bonjon1979 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:32 pm
Jolle wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:24 pm
bonjon1979 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:57 pm


I think Vettel's done. I can't see him going for many more years, he just seems fed up with it and not enjoying himself anymore. A shame really.
I think his future (with Ferrari) will depend on how fast Leclerc will develop this and coming season. If he can’t up his game it might be game over or, if Verstappen leaves RedBull, a possible return to the mothership for a few years.
Verstappen to Merc, Hamilton to Ferrari would be interesting to watch.
Hmmm, Vettel might come in the same kind of problem as Alonso had a couple of years ago. With Ferrari giving Leclerc a four year deal, they more or less set their future. Leclerc is not a Massa or Barrichello. Hamilton has too much experience and performs best with a solid wing man (like Heiki or Bottas). Having said that, there is much respect between Hamilton and Verstappen and I can see them as teammates as a star team (if Hamilton is on seven WC).

mzso
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by mzso » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:19 pm

Jolle wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:24 pm
I think his future (with Ferrari) will depend on how fast Leclerc will develop this and coming season. If he can’t up his game it might be game over or, if Verstappen leaves RedBull, a possible return to the mothership for a few years.
The way I see it Leclerc has already outperformed him already. His was abused, hindered, or let down by his team every single race. Team orders in the first five. Horrible strategies here and in Baku to keep him safely away from challenging Vettel.
The Monaco qualifying abomination, the failed PU in Bahrain. They "forgot" to inform him about Vettel's time penalty here...
He didn't have one clean race free of some failure or handicapping from Ferrari. Even if you only take the most obvious points he was robbed of in Monaco and Bahrain he would be in front of Vettel...
Plus he didn't fumble even when he was up to win his first race, and even after the PU malfunctioned.
GPR -A wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:45 pm
Verstappen would leave because Red Bull can't make a championship winning car. That means Vettel wouldn't want to go there either. He would rather prefer to retire as a proud 4 time WDC.
Once proud. I didn't see any of that pride this weekend.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Jolle » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:29 pm

mzso wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:19 pm
Jolle wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:24 pm
I think his future (with Ferrari) will depend on how fast Leclerc will develop this and coming season. If he can’t up his game it might be game over or, if Verstappen leaves RedBull, a possible return to the mothership for a few years.
The way I see it Leclerc has already outperformed him already. His was abused, hindered, or let down by his team every single race. Team orders in the first five. Horrible strategies here and in Baku to keep him safely away from challenging Vettel.
The Monaco qualifying abomination, the failed PU in Bahrain. They "forgot" to inform him about Vettel's time penalty here...
He didn't have one clean race free of some failure or handicapping from Ferrari. Even if you only take the most obvious points he was robbed of in Monaco and Bahrain he would be in front of Vettel...
Plus he didn't fumble even when he was up to win his first race, and even after the PU malfunctioned.
Leclerc is on a same kind of development as Verstappen I think. Fast, a lot of self confidence but still those expensive mistakes like Baku and Monaco. But just like Verstappen these will disappear in time when he finds that sweet spot when to attack and when not. With Vettel, his speed is still there, but it's covered in frustration and mistakes that amplify each other. I don't think this will be his last mistake from the season....

Shrieker
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Shrieker » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:29 pm

waynes wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:34 am
Shrieker wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:50 pm
They had him go long and have fresher tires for later on in case there was a SC. So they split their 2 cars to cover for both eventualities (sc vs no sc). Lec had fallen back sufficiently already before the leaders had their stops, so it was only logical to go for a different plan with him; I don't blame Ferrari here.
Wasn't he catching VET / HAM when the stops started happening? I fully understand what you say, and yes its logical to split strategies looking back.
An early pit for Lec to undercut Ham would've forced the team's hand to pit Vet to cover from a Ham undercut, causing both Lec and Vet to have a compromised race in case there was a SC later.
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mzso
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by mzso » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:34 pm

Jolle wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:46 pm
On F1TV you have onboard with sound (and a good view on his shift lights).
He was off throttle on the gras (would have been a good spin otherwise) but when he straightened out the car back on track, gave it power again and kept steering to the wall, closing the gap.

So he was in control and squeezed Hamilton or he was putting power on the rears while still not in control. But that’s more Grosjean’s thing...

Anyway. If he followed the rules of engagement, Hamilton would of passed him.

So Vettel took a good race away with his nasty tactics.

Hamilton wasn’t always as precise as in recent years. I remember a hefty crash with Pérez, few with Massa... but he didn’t blame anyone but himself and sharpened himself. Now we look at Vettel. All incidents where he ran into other drivers, it’s always their fault... and his fans provide the perfect supporters for his claims. This way he’s never going to beat Hamilton (or Verstappen in the near future who has better self reflection then Vettel)
That's cool, though I don't have access.
Someone from here have uploaded on-board footage for previous races a lot of them with telemetry. (mainly for the F14u youtube channel which was banned by now). So I was hoping for something like that.

Shrieker
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Shrieker » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:03 pm

GrizzleBoy wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:10 pm
I think emotion and straight denial is the reason why anyone in their right mind could compare Hamilton not getting a penalty in Monaco for leaving space on the track, with Vettel getting a penalty in Canada for not leaving space on the track.

It's also interesting to see people talking about morality of the situation and what "should've" happened and who deserved what.

Because is there actually a way to successfully argue that Vettel "deserved" the win for himself by getting pressured into a mistake, going off track and coming back on with the intent to block a driver who didn't make a mistake?

What is the successful moral argument that allows for a driver to be pressured into a mistake and effectively lose his place, but regain it by blocking another car who did all they needed to force that mistake in the first place and arguably did actually did do what they needed to do to have a right to take that place that they made for themselves?

What is the moral argument that allows a defending car to block another car from passing by turning right on the exit of a medium speed left hander after that other car created a chance by forcing a mistake out of you?

Because if we're actually talking about morals and deserving, whether you agree with it or not, whether you think it should be in the rules or not, parking the car to block the road not as part of a steely defensive move or praiseworthy driving, but as part of clumsy and panicked behaviour would never usually grant the clumsy driver a moral high ground.

Vettel deserved the win because he went off track and managed to block the road so his competitor could no longer proceed without having to slow down in an Acceleration zone?

He "should" have won because of that?

The stewards should ignore the telemetry, the camera angles and whether sebs radio excuses were true or not based on all the data they have, because of that?

I don't think there's a deserving or morality arguement for Vettel side here.

I can't remember the last time a person who forfeit their ability to win through their own actions was declared so absolutely deserving of a win they threw away on their own or that its immoral for the guy who threw away his chance to not win vs a guy who took his chance and was denied it by someone else's immoral and illegal driving.

It's actually quite crazy.
Merc and Hamilton's dominance have done people in. It's hilarious tho that they find them guilty for wanting to be the best.
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Phil
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Phil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:13 pm

I sort of get the same impression too. It's as if the sport needed this, many fans needed a non-Mercedes car to win and feel they've been hard done by having that taken away by a stewards decision. I also feel somewhat that Vettel was kind of desperate for this win and a fault-less performance on his part too - he's been extremely under pressure, not helped by the fact that the team came out publicly to say they'd support him in 50/50 decisions and against what many probably wanted.

I really wanted him to win too and had the stewards decided not to penalize, I would have accepted it. Though, I find it incredibly hard to argue against their reasons for penalizing what essentially comes down to a black on white infringement. And I also disagree that the rules should be bent just because we wanted a different narrative. The rules are the rules, regardless who it affects and no matter if it influences a race win or a championship.

Having said that, I think overall less influence by stewards would be generally a good thing - but there are different extremes here too. Rules are required because without, it will lead to chaos and danger.

I'll also say again that I think Vettel drove and absolute masterclass of a race, even if he made that one mistake. His car was evidently extremely difficult to drive and the pressure of holding back a faster Mercedes in the hands of Hamilton immense. Definitely the driver of the day for me.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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TAG
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by TAG » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:25 pm

Everyone was okay with the Verstappen rule added for weaving under braking. See it's not about the rules and I actually think, demonstrably so that the stewards have left a lot more incidents go (perhaps's under Liberty's direction) and things have been considerably better for it. It's just that people didn't like this outcome. I was one of the 99% of fans on Sunday actually rooting for Vettel, because I was thoroughly enjoying the race long battle. But it wasn't to be.

If anything is to be gained here is that people would rather see a penalty that allows the drivers to continue to fight instead of the automatic 5 seconds added. Make Ferrari hand the position over since that's what would have happened had he not blocked Hamilton. The problem isn't the rules, the problem is that there was a more elegant penalty that wouldn't have sacrificed the battle these two champions were having.

It's a shame that so many fans can't see beyond their own points of view. Maybe with some time.
Countdown to 91: 10 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

mzso
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by mzso » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:26 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:13 pm
Here is the first example I have found, quick search...

A car taking to the grass at turn 3/4. Ricciardo in the Toro Rosso. He jumped across the grass at the last second to avoid a crash, so he didnt plan on going across the grass until the last second (Like Vettel) He then rejoined the track, had no one closing in on him yet still didnt need to use all the track, in a car with far less grip than the current cars. So I cant understand why ex-drivers say Seb had no choice when he clearly did.


http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=286 ... 26c27d0274

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=c38 ... ba17bd7430

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=142 ... b0a634c8a9

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=948 ... 749e079d40

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=f8f ... c46893b5f5

The car we are onboard with (Kimi) clearly hits the throttle harder and gets more oversteer and drifts wider showing that if you control the throttle better you can easlily control the trajectory of your car. If you listen to the ex-drivers who say Seb had no choice, it sounds like they are saying, if you go across the grass there, you can only avoid a crash by using the full width of the track! but its clear from a 10min search online that those drivers are talking BS.
Do you have a link to this video? (Or can you upload it somewhere if it's a local file.)

elMaestro
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by elMaestro » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:37 pm

I think judging from the nose of the FI and the livery of the Lotus this is the 2013 Canadian GP..

Phil
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Phil » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:50 pm

BTW did anyone realize that Renault engaged team-orders to stop Hulkenberg from challenging Ricciardo?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter