2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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Midi
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Midi » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:23 pm

One can certainly have an argument about the supposedly 1 cars width that Hamilton left Ricciardo at Monaco in 2016, I for one think he certainly squeezed DR just as every other driver would have done and as DR explicitly has indicated. In the end it doesn't matter but please don't put it like its a fact that he left enough space.

TAG
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by TAG » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:33 pm

Midi wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:23 pm
One can certainly have an argument about the supposedly 1 cars width that Hamilton left Ricciardo at Monaco in 2016, I for one think he certainly squeezed DR just as every other driver would have done and as DR explicitly has indicated. In the end it doesn't matter but please don't put it like its a fact that he left enough space.
No it was fact. See that's the difference, opinions can be argued about. Facts? No so much, doing so tends to lead people into delusion.

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izzy
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by izzy » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:36 pm

Midi wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:23 pm
One can certainly have an argument about the supposedly 1 cars width that Hamilton left Ricciardo at Monaco in 2016, I for one think he certainly squeezed DR just as every other driver would have done and as DR explicitly has indicated. In the end it doesn't matter but please don't put it like its a fact that he left enough space.
It is a fact tho, image version of TAG's :
Image

Racecraft, just like Seb's, but more perfect :)

LM10
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by LM10 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:47 pm

Midi wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:23 pm
One can certainly have an argument about the supposedly 1 cars width that Hamilton left Ricciardo at Monaco in 2016, I for one think he certainly squeezed DR just as every other driver would have done and as DR explicitly has indicated. In the end it doesn't matter but please don't put it like its a fact that he left enough space.
Lewis seems to have left a car width, but it was wet on the right side. By definition, that’s enough space, but from a practical point of view, minding that it was wet, it would have only worked in a video game for Ric to be side by side on slicks and not spinning/crashing.
So, the stewards seem not to be able to think and interpret in a flexible way. If the width they measure from video footage is up to the exact same width as the one of the other car, it means from a physical point of view the car will fit into that space and that’s it. =D>

Midi
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Midi » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:53 pm

Ok than this is enough room as well, just more perfect! ;)
Image

turbof1
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by turbof1 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:56 pm

Midi wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:53 pm
Ok than this is enough room as well, just more perfect! ;)
http://insideracing.com/images/2019/6-J ... jimage.jpg
Not exactly actually, because the rules stipulate a car width between the defending car and the edge of the track, with the edge of the track for avoidance of doubt being defined as the white line.

For the record, yes I noticed there is no white line in the Monaco case, where you should take the barrier instead as the edge. Yes, that means a lot of confusion where the barrier is the edge in Monaco, but not in Canada where the white line is the edge. I did not write these rules.
27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
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Midi
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Midi » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:08 pm

That's true, and come to think of it if Hamilton had a little more space and would have overtaken Vettel he could have been penalized for overtaking outside the track limits :D I'm glad not to be in the position of the race stewards!
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TAG
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by TAG » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:08 pm

Midi wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:53 pm
Ok than this is enough room as well, just more perfect! ;)
http://insideracing.com/images/2019/6-J ... jimage.jpg
Not sure if you've taken into consideration that in Monaco, the track ends at the guard rail. In Canada the track ends at the white line. So NO room left at all.
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LM10
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by LM10 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:10 pm

izzy wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:19 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:30 am

Towards 31. second he got full control again. At that time, Hamilton was unintentionally squeezed and needed to brake because there already was not enough space for him. The point which made the stewards to decide how they eventually did, was that after the mentioned point Vettel kept on positioning his car towards the right side instead of left. This was definitely the reason for the decision, else it doesn't make sense.
Seb had control by the end of 29s, he'd corrected, he steered left for a moment then he straightened it up to keep pointing at the wall. that's what the the stewards saw and said. This is Seb Vettel we're talking about, he knew what he was going to do the first millisecond he lost the back end, and Lewis knew too, 9 wdc's between them. Seb planned to occupy that bit of track by the wall asap and Lewis planned to make it look as naughty as possible

It was racecraft, just not quite perfect :)
Definitely not. Watch the onboard. He has oversteer coming onto the track again which is shown by the snap of the steering wheel, obviously. As soon as the oversteer is corrected by him (meaning he is in control of the car again), the space between his car and the white line (being the track limit) is visibly small for Hamilton to fit there.

If we are about to tell that a driver can’t be punished as long as he’s not in control of the car (as Rosberg stated), it’s a question of when Vettel was in control of his car and in my opinion it’s obvious that it only was after there was not enough space between him and the white line anyway.

What I agree with, however, is that he kept on positioning the car towards right afterwards which he should have not. But the question is of what significance is this as Hamilton had no where to go already when Vettel was still in process of getting control?

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by GPR -A » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:16 pm

TAG wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:33 pm
Midi wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:23 pm
One can certainly have an argument about the supposedly 1 cars width that Hamilton left Ricciardo at Monaco in 2016, I for one think he certainly squeezed DR just as every other driver would have done and as DR explicitly has indicated. In the end it doesn't matter but please don't put it like its a fact that he left enough space.
No it was fact. See that's the difference, opinions can be argued about. Facts? No so much, doing so tends to lead people into delusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haqpopZyvwc
People are conveniently forgetting that, the space appeared for Ricciardo in Monaco, because there was puddle of water and no driver was taking that line. Lewis avoided that puddle, which Ricciardo chose to take on his own risk. Once his car was on the puddle, his car got handful and he had no choice but to back off, despite there being a car's width. If it was a dry track, that space wouldn't have existed. Simple common sense, but people do not want to apply.

TAG
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by TAG » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:20 pm

LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:10 pm
What I agree with, however, is that he kept on positioning the car towards right afterwards which he should have not. But the question is of what significance is this as Hamilton had no where to go already when Vettel was still in process of getting control?
That's where it gets juicy, the stewards took the time to confirm that Hamilton had to break, not when Vettel was out of control and still trying to regain it, but when Vettel made sure to look, notice where Hamilton was, and decide to steer (allow to naturally drift) the car in that direction thereby closing the door and forcing Hamilton to brake hard in order to not crash. They were very clear in the finding that Vettel's choice to squeeze was deliberate and as such unsafe.

That's the thing that people keep choosing to not address. There would have been no penalty issued should Vettel not have squeezed Hamilton into the wall because they wouldn't then have been able to call the reentry "unsafe". Vettel made a racer's descision, a calculated gamble and he lost. No one other than Vettel's decision at that point "robbed" us of racing, which is the predominant cry from all the commentary so far.

My frustration with Vettel isn't what he did. Many drivers would have done the same. My frustration is that he then goes on to INSIST that he did nothing wrong and that it's everyone's fault but his. He does this over and over. What he did post race given the facts say he's simply a child when things don't go his way. I can understand the frustration, but man I'm embarrassed for him as a human being.

FYI, I heard that after Barcelona's crash with Nico, Lewis trashed his trailer home. But no one got to see it, so.
Last edited by TAG on Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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izzy
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by izzy » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:23 pm

LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:10 pm

Definitely not. Watch the onboard. He has oversteer coming onto the track again which is shown by the snap of the steering wheel, obviously. As soon as the oversteer is corrected by him (meaning he is in control of the car again), the space between his car and the white line (being the track limit) is visibly small for Hamilton to fit there.

If we are about to tell that a driver can’t be punished as long as he’s not in control of the car (as Rosberg stated), it’s a question of when Vettel was in control of his car and in my opinion it’s obvious that it only was after there was not enough space between him and the white line anyway.

What I agree with, however, is that he kept on positioning the car towards right afterwards which he should have not. But the question is of what significance is this as Hamilton had no where to go already when Vettel was still in process of getting control?
The onboard is no use unless we can see the overhead synced with it like the stewards could, so we can see why he's steering. The overhead i just posted shows a little skip coming off the kerb then it's corrected and the car's still pointing towards the wall. Seb steers left then changes his mind and straightens it,that's what the stewards said and we can see it

By this time he's wishing he'd used just a bit more throttle! And he keeps coming towards the wall, to keep Lewis behind obviously. it would've been allowed except that he's been off track and is rejoining

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by turbof1 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:25 pm

Midi wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:08 pm
That's true, and come to think of it if Hamilton had a little more space and would have overtaken Vettel he could have been penalized for overtaking outside the track limits :D I'm glad not to be in the position of the race stewards!
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 748-15.jpg
Not a bad point. However, there is past precedence where overtaking outside the track on a straight line is allowed depending on the circumstances. It is of course dangerous and the one car-width rule is there to ensure this shouldn't happen, but when it happens that a car is shoved wide and the overtake is still succesful, it is allowed. In your case if we apply strictly the written rules, Vettel should have been penalized first for pushing his competitor off the track in the first place, and then Hamilton should be punished. If that would ever happen though, we'd have a much bigger controversy and outrage then we have now.

Note that Vettel was actually punished in 2011 during the Germany GP for overtaking outside the track! He was deemed to cut the track and gained an advantage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ2FrG2kPy8

The reasoning was here that Vettel was not pushed wide, but went outside the track so that could get early on the throttle to out-accelerate Button.

Here is an example where it was allowed:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqbljq

I do agree that makes it even more confusing. We have written rules, unwritten rules, precedences. It is a mess.
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by turbof1 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:27 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:16 pm
TAG wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:33 pm
Midi wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:23 pm
One can certainly have an argument about the supposedly 1 cars width that Hamilton left Ricciardo at Monaco in 2016, I for one think he certainly squeezed DR just as every other driver would have done and as DR explicitly has indicated. In the end it doesn't matter but please don't put it like its a fact that he left enough space.
No it was fact. See that's the difference, opinions can be argued about. Facts? No so much, doing so tends to lead people into delusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haqpopZyvwc
People are conveniently forgetting that, the space appeared for Ricciardo in Monaco, because there was puddle of water and no driver was taking that line. Lewis avoided that puddle, which Ricciardo chose to take on his own risk. Once his car was on the puddle, his car got handful and he had no choice but to back off, despite there being a car's width. If it was a dry track, that space wouldn't have existed. Simple common sense, but people do not want to apply.
That space might actually have existed in the dry. Remember, Hamilton was unable to navigate corner 11 in any normal way. He had little else choice than to navigate the car like that.

That outside the point. I'd still argue Hamilton's defending was morally on the edge, but not regulatory-wise.
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TAG
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by TAG » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:31 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:25 pm
Here is an example where it was allowed:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqbljq

I do agree that makes it even more confusing. We have written rules, unwritten rules, precedences. It is a mess.
That's the famous Alonso "all the time, you have to leave a space!" commentary from the cockpit.
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