Scuderia Ferrari SF90

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f1316
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by f1316 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:17 am

zibby43 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:56 am
f1316 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:14 pm
If they’re able to get more front downforce without compromising their overall concept - and can therefore better balance the car + get tyres in the window . . .
In other words, if they are able to completely rectify all of their problems.
What would you propose the purpose of the new front wing is?

zibby43
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by zibby43 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:04 am

f1316 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:17 am
zibby43 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:56 am
f1316 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:14 pm
If they’re able to get more front downforce without compromising their overall concept - and can therefore better balance the car + get tyres in the window . . .
In other words, if they are able to completely rectify all of their problems.
What would you propose the purpose of the new front wing is?
The front wing will only be the first step in a series of developments designed to address the issues you initially referenced. It will be a marginal improvement, at best, and that improvement will be incremental. And if they comitt fully to the direction of bolting on more downforce, they will begin to compromise their top speed advantage.

A few days ago, Binotto told Michael Schmidt of AMuS that Ferrari will need at least 2-3 development steps until they have a chance of eroding the Mercedes advantage by attempting to mirror their concept. He went on to say that 2-3 development steps can't happen in 2 weeks; maybe 2 months, if at all.

So, in sum, the new FW won't be a cure-all, and if they want balance and tire performance, they will have to compromise their current concept of supreme aero efficiency.

amr
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by amr » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:34 am

Do we know that is the downforce/drag ratio for a typical FW, or at least compared with the RW?
I suspect that even though the new FW performance figure will not be that much better compared to the current one, the effect of the new FW will be substantially on the overall car. The new FW could better manage the front wheel wake and it can help the bargeboard work harder so that even if the new FW downforce is not improved there will be a big improvement in downforce overall.
I have a feeling that the slightest improvement in the FW will cascade down to the rest of the car which in turn will help to manage the tyres.

f1316
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by f1316 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:03 pm

zibby43 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:04 am
f1316 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:17 am
zibby43 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:56 am


In other words, if they are able to completely rectify all of their problems.
What would you propose the purpose of the new front wing is?
The front wing will only be the first step in a series of developments designed to address the issues you initially referenced. It will be a marginal improvement, at best, and that improvement will be incremental. And if they comitt fully to the direction of bolting on more downforce, they will begin to compromise their top speed advantage.

A few days ago, Binotto told Michael Schmidt of AMuS that Ferrari will need at least 2-3 development steps until they have a chance of eroding the Mercedes advantage by attempting to mirror their concept. He went on to say that 2-3 development steps can't happen in 2 weeks; maybe 2 months, if at all.

So, in sum, the new FW won't be a cure-all, and if they want balance and tire performance, they will have to compromise their current concept of supreme aero efficiency.
I haven’t read the specific article you reference but it conflicts with other quotes from Binotto I’ve read - i.e. that they will look to increase overall downforce (in order to better work the tyres) but will not move away from their own front wing concept. So they don’t intend to ‘mirror’ Mercedes.

In any case, the point I was originally making is that, given that tracks like France and Britain include a lot of on throttle - in which Ferrari excel - and will also put a lot of heat into the tyres (Ferrari won Britain on the thinner gauge tyres last year), it may only take an incremental gain to get significant rewards on that type of track (as opposed to, say, Hungary or Singapore).

One and Only
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by One and Only » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:33 pm

These tires are very sensitive so small change in downforce level could lead to much better (or worse) tire usage, hence much better (or worse) performance overall. I believe Ferrari can make them work even with their efficient aero concept.
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

godlameroso
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by godlameroso » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:27 pm

amr wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:34 am
Do we know that is the downforce/drag ratio for a typical FW, or at least compared with the RW?
I suspect that even though the new FW performance figure will not be that much better compared to the current one, the effect of the new FW will be substantially on the overall car. The new FW could better manage the front wheel wake and it can help the bargeboard work harder so that even if the new FW downforce is not improved there will be a big improvement in downforce overall.
I have a feeling that the slightest improvement in the FW will cascade down to the rest of the car which in turn will help to manage the tyres.
FW causes very little drag relative to the rest of the car.
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zibby43
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by zibby43 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:26 pm

f1316 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:03 pm
I haven’t read the specific article you reference but it conflicts with other quotes from Binotto I’ve read - i.e. that they will look to increase overall downforce (in order to better work the tyres) but will not move away from their own front wing concept. So they don’t intend to ‘mirror’ Mercedes.

In any case, the point I was originally making is that, given that tracks like France and Britain include a lot of on throttle - in which Ferrari excel - and will also put a lot of heat into the tyres (Ferrari won Britain on the thinner gauge tyres last year), it may only take an incremental gain to get significant rewards on that type of track (as opposed to, say, Hungary or Singapore).
They may not move away from their current FW concept, even after trying to tune it for more front DF, but in the quote I referenced above, he was clearly indicating moving toward a higher downforce concept across the entire car.

Whether he's talking about keeping the original design philosophy of the FW or moving the rest of the car toward the Mercedes philosophy, I take anything that these team principals say with a grain of salt. They just manage expectations and answer the (sometimes goofy) questions they're fed.

I don't know about France and Silverstone yet. Last year's Ferrari went well at Silverstone, but last year's car was so much different to this year's version.

dans79
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Location: USA

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by dans79 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:38 pm

Any change they make to just the front wing will be small and incrimental. If they made any kind of major df change to only the front wing, they would get a horrible imbalance to go with it.

If they are truley going for a merc like high df design, then we will probably see several incremental fw updates. The question will be how much of their top speed advantage will be left if any.

roon
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by roon » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:54 pm

Bolt on larger front wing, increase front suspension rates accordingly. Alter rear wing and rake if needed. RW sizes are pretty consistent across the field, but FW size varies considerably. This suggests there is design flexibility.

dans79
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by dans79 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:59 pm

roon wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:54 pm
Bolt on larger front wing, increase front suspension rates accordingly. Alter rear wing and rake if needed. RW sizes are pretty consistent across the field, but FW size varies considerably. This suggests there is design flexibility.
All the bits in between need to be updated as well or you will most likely pick up a horrendous amount of drag.

Ashwinv16
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Ashwinv16 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:43 pm

zibby43 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:04 am
f1316 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:17 am
zibby43 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:56 am


In other words, if they are able to completely rectify all of their problems.
What would you propose the purpose of the new front wing is?
The front wing will only be the first step in a series of developments designed to address the issues you initially referenced. It will be a marginal improvement, at best, and that improvement will be incremental. And if they comitt fully to the direction of bolting on more downforce, they will begin to compromise their top speed advantage.

A few days ago, Binotto told Michael Schmidt of AMuS that Ferrari will need at least 2-3 development steps until they have a chance of eroding the Mercedes advantage by attempting to mirror their concept. He went on to say that 2-3 development steps can't happen in 2 weeks; maybe 2 months, if at all.

So, in sum, the new FW won't be a cure-all, and if they want balance and tire performance, they will have to compromise their current concept of supreme aero efficiency.
amr wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:34 am
Do we know that is the downforce/drag ratio for a typical FW, or at least compared with the RW?
I suspect that even though the new FW performance figure will not be that much better compared to the current one, the effect of the new FW will be substantially on the overall car. The new FW could better manage the front wheel wake and it can help the bargeboard work harder so that even if the new FW downforce is not improved there will be a big improvement in downforce overall.
I have a feeling that the slightest improvement in the FW will cascade down to the rest of the car which in turn will help to manage the tyres.
amr is right in his idea that a small change in front wing will affect the car down stream but it also has a huge effect on the front tire operating window, which is why you rarely see an update in the edges of the Front-wing and the Endplates (But from time to time there are very small cuts made like Mercedes's and Red Bull's wing in china). The important thing is the unpredictability of the tyres and depending upon front wing update it can go much better than predicted(Like Williams in 2014) or much worse (Like Sauber in 2016 although they eventually improved). China by the way also shows that Ferrari themselves don't fully understand their car as they had used the wrong set-up giving less wing thinking they had more Downforce, based on what happened last year, and only after China did they realise they have a low drag car (Relative to rivals). This is why they started working on the update so we still don't exactly know which car is faster in the Fast corners. France will show this and if Ferrari is fast in France then there is hope for the season.
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LM10
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by LM10 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:50 pm

dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:38 pm
Any change they make to just the front wing will be small and incrimental. If they made any kind of major df change to only the front wing, they would get a horrible imbalance to go with it.

If they are truley going for a merc like high df design, then we will probably see several incremental fw updates. The question will be how much of their top speed advantage will be left if any.
That's right. It will be an interesting thing to see.
I'm not sure about how much of the straight line speed advantage is down to less drag. Because in Canada Vettel could comfortably stay ahead of Hamilton on the straight and it should be minded that the RW (arguably the draggiest part on a car) on the Ferrari was visibly bigger than the one on the Mercedes. In addition to that Hamilton had slipstream and DRS.

f1316
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by f1316 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:10 am

LM10 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:50 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:38 pm
Any change they make to just the front wing will be small and incrimental. If they made any kind of major df change to only the front wing, they would get a horrible imbalance to go with it.

If they are truley going for a merc like high df design, then we will probably see several incremental fw updates. The question will be how much of their top speed advantage will be left if any.
That's right. It will be an interesting thing to see.
I'm not sure about how much of the straight line speed advantage is down to less drag. Because in Canada Vettel could comfortably stay ahead of Hamilton on the straight and it should be minded that the RW (arguably the draggiest part on a car) on the Ferrari was visibly bigger than the one on the Mercedes. In addition to that Hamilton had slipstream and DRS.
But the point is that they’ve said they won’t abandon their own concept for Mercedes’ - tbh they probably couldn’t do it properly mid-season even if they wanted to, given how the whole car is all related to what they’re doing upstream - they’re just going to seek more peak downforce within their own concept in order to better work the tyres (the implication being that the advantage Mercedes would be at least significantly smaller if Ferrari were getting the tyres in the window).

Who knows if any of what a team principle says is actually true - and the quoted AMuS article seems to indicate them saying something different, so idk - but this is what the general party line.

dans79
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by dans79 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:45 pm

Binotto on the changes need to challenge Mercedes. It will be interesting to see how much of their strait line speed advantage is left after they strap on a bunch of downforce and drag.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/ferrari- ... weeks.html
"As a circuit, Paul Ricard should be more difficult for us," he told the Italian broadcaster Rai. "It's more like Barcelona than Montreal."

And so he said Maranello is working flat-out to alter the 'concept' of the Ferrari car.

"Regarding the tyres, obviously we cannot change that. What we can do is change the concept of our car," said Binotto.

"That means more downforce and drag. And you cannot correct that in a day.

"The process will take several weeks, because we have to make sure that any changes to our aerodynamics go in the right direction.

"It will take two or three upgrades before we're able to challenge Mercedes everywhere."


And so until those upgrades succeed, Binotto admitted the world championship is "not the question I'm asking right now".

"The priority is that we recognise the problem correctly and react to it in the best way so that we can regain our strength as soon as possible."

santos
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by santos » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:08 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:45 pm
Binotto on the changes need to challenge Mercedes. It will be interesting to see how much of their strait line speed advantage is left after they strap on a bunch of downforce and drag.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/ferrari- ... weeks.html
"As a circuit, Paul Ricard should be more difficult for us," he told the Italian broadcaster Rai. "It's more like Barcelona than Montreal."

And so he said Maranello is working flat-out to alter the 'concept' of the Ferrari car.

"Regarding the tyres, obviously we cannot change that. What we can do is change the concept of our car," said Binotto.

"That means more downforce and drag. And you cannot correct that in a day.

"The process will take several weeks, because we have to make sure that any changes to our aerodynamics go in the right direction.

"It will take two or three upgrades before we're able to challenge Mercedes everywhere."


And so until those upgrades succeed, Binotto admitted the world championship is "not the question I'm asking right now".

"The priority is that we recognise the problem correctly and react to it in the best way so that we can regain our strength as soon as possible."
Well, at least they found the problem. They needed that to start to develop the car for the next season. This seems to be already lost.