2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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Jolle
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:14 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:37 pm
roon wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:15 pm
Keeping it floored despite competitors veering off course ahead of me. Vroom. Speaking of Latin insertions, those Toro Rosso parts that landed in Grosjean's car: something halo naysayers warned about?
Nothing can land in the car. The halo will block 100% everything. Or thats what someone once said. Very good point though
Er, the debris hit the halo and stayed outside the cockpit. Here is video of just that happening and him reaching through the gap to push the debris away so he could see to rejoin.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... LxnRC.html

So, another case of halo 1: naysayers 0. :lol:
plus, before everybody goes off the rails again with "what if", racing suits and gloves must undergo a tear test to withstand razor sharp pieces of carbon flying with high speed into the cockpit. So although it might look scary, drivers are very safe. (plus most of their upper torso is covered by the HANS and seatbelts and side cockpit protection)

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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carisi2k wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:04 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:55 am
carisi2k wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:34 am
I would also argue that many people seem to have forgotten how slippery the circuit was and certainly the grass wouldn't have provided any grip to allow seb to position his car in a safe manner. Seb was probably lucky he didn't go in to the wall.
Seb was lucky he didn't go in to the wall so Lewis had to suffer for it??

Seb was also lucky to finish 2nd then??
I will agree that seb was lucky to finish second.

Seb however was having a moment and trying to recover his vehicle and lewis put himself in to that position. If someone is having an accident or a moment in front of you what do you normally do on the road. Lewis could have slowed a touch and waited for seb to end up where he did and then take the inside to go past without needing a penalty. Instead he put himself right where seb would be recovering or having an accident.

I would also then ask why a similar penalty wasn't given to Lewis at Monaco. If anything Lewis cutting of the corner at monaco was much more aggregious then Sebs at Canada. Max was attempting an overtaking manuevre and was at least part way up the side of Max and lewis admitted he turned in early to make it difficult for him.

I am coming at this from a completly unbiased direction because I dislike Seb, Lewis and Max all equally. It doesn't bother me which one wins if Danny R isn't winning.
It doesn't matter whether your in control or not. You cant push another car off the track. The track is to the white line, so Seb should have left a cars width between his right hand wheels and the white line as Lewis was a large portion alongside Seb. Seb went all the way to the white line and left zero space. If he did this while out of control like so many are saying and using in his defence, then that means it was an unsafe re-entry to the track. What ever way you look at it, its a penalty.
Pushing someone off or unsafe re-entry, you choose, same result. Penalty.

As for Hamilton on Max in Monaco, Lewis squeezed Max, yes. He squeezed him i. A way while aiming his car at the apex of the corner. Did he leave max enough space, yes. No problems there.
After the contact Lewis took to the run off because if he turned in, they both probably would have been damaged badly (max front wing gone, lewis puncture ect) also adding Max also cut the chicane too, not just Lewis.
Lewis then rejoined the track with no one beside him (i think there was a backmarker around going slowly trying to get out the way maybe) and didnt have anyone almost hitting the rear of his car so it was a safe re-entry.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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To put it simple, can any of the fans who think Vettel should have not got a penalty answer these 3 questions honestly....

Are you allowed to push another car off the track when they are alongside you? Yes or No?

Are you allowed to push another car off the track if you could prove that you never saw the other car in your mirrors? Even though that car was a large portion alongside you.
Yes or No?

If you come back on to the track after being on grass or gravel and are out of control and cause another car to brake and avoid you, is this a safe re-entry or an insafe re-entry?
Safe or Unsafe?

All 3 of these are worthy of penalties if found guilty of the crime. Sebastian has to have committed one of these offences, and deserved his penalty.
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carisi2k
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:03 am
To put it simple, can any of the fans who think Vettel should have not got a penalty answer these 3 questions honestly....

Are you allowed to push another car off the track when they are alongside you? Yes or No?

Are you allowed to push another car off the track if you could prove that you never saw the other car in your mirrors? Even though that car was a large portion alongside you.
Yes or No?

If you come back on to the track after being on grass or gravel and are out of control and cause another car to brake and avoid you, is this a safe re-entry or an insafe re-entry?
Safe or Unsafe?

All 3 of these are worthy of penalties if found guilty of the crime. Sebastian has to have committed one of these offences, and deserved his penalty.
Answer 1. No. Lewis however was never beside Seb at any point in this incident for this to be the case and Lewis has as much responsibility to avoid an accident with an out of control car in front of him if not more resposibility.

Answer 2. No, however in this incident can you prove that seb pushed Lewis off the track and more importantly where is your proof that lewis was actually beside seb. With seb off the road the yellow flag rule should apply meaning no overtaking.

A3. No, however in this incident I would argue that with sebastian leaving the circuit that a yellow flag should have been active resulting in Lewis needing to have backed off and no overtaking being permitted. I would also argue that an incident was still happening up until the point sebastian regained control on the grippy part of the race track.

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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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carisi2k wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:22 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:03 am
To put it simple, can any of the fans who think Vettel should have not got a penalty answer these 3 questions honestly....

Are you allowed to push another car off the track when they are alongside you? Yes or No?

Are you allowed to push another car off the track if you could prove that you never saw the other car in your mirrors? Even though that car was a large portion alongside you.
Yes or No?

If you come back on to the track after being on grass or gravel and are out of control and cause another car to brake and avoid you, is this a safe re-entry or an insafe re-entry?
Safe or Unsafe?

All 3 of these are worthy of penalties if found guilty of the crime. Sebastian has to have committed one of these offences, and deserved his penalty.
Answer 1. No. Lewis however was never beside Seb at any point in this incident for this to be the case and Lewis has as much responsibility to avoid an accident with an out of control car in front of him if not more resposibility.

Answer 2. No, however in this incident can you prove that seb pushed Lewis off the track and more importantly where is your proof that lewis was actually beside seb. With seb off the road the yellow flag rule should apply meaning no overtaking.

A3. No, however in this incident I would argue that with sebastian leaving the circuit that a yellow flag should have been active resulting in Lewis needing to have backed off and no overtaking being permitted. I would also argue that an incident was still happening up until the point sebastian regained control on the grippy part of the race track.
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bosyber
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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I am open to arguments that the world would be a better one where the penalty wasn't a think (so the rules that led to it being amended) - I just read on twitter from Mark Hughes:
https://twitter.com/SportmphMark/status ... 7735359488
That might be an interesting new twist, though I am sceptical that a fair and safe rule might be found to go differently, but we will see, I suppose, and perhaps Ferrari can provide us with the marvel they so far this year have hardly been able to provide on-track.

But, no argument I have seen that tried to make the 'penalty was wrong even with the rules' point so far actually holds cogently and sticks to the facts.
No, not from drivers either - Ricciardo's "Monaco Hamilton on me was more of a penalty" misses several things and is somewhat self-serving, if in looking in the back mirror, same goes for Verstappen's similar one; Norris "well a crash would be more entertaining" at least doesn't go to the penalty but the rule itself, though it seems maybe he needs to step back from sim racing mindset there. The Sky and motorsport discussions seem to not want to stick to the actual facts because they want the penalty to not have been given, though they should have all the info the stewards wrote, by now.

In fact, Vettel got off track, was on throttle, but not full throttle while there, which is probably the best way to go; he got on track without fully losing the car; yes Hamilton was clearly well besides Vettel at that point, and the reason he was behind, as he moved off track with all four wheels, was that he braked to avoid an accident - all shown in available footage that proves that yes, the fact is Hamilton was squeezed by Vettel who came on the track - either unsafely, or intending to squeeze. The stewards looked at all their data and decided he could have avoided that squeeze (so that makes it intentional then). Let's see if Ferrari add pertinent new facts today.

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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I think the silver bullet refers to their cornering performance issues rather than the penalty.

bosyber
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:18 am
I think the silver bullet refers to their cornering performance issues rather than the penalty.
Heh, okay, guess I'm a little preoccupied with all the media people still talking about this as well! So, that would be great, they actually showing us a good improvement on track (though properly fitting in the French GP thread,I suppose :)

edit: well, article is out, and indeed, about their car.
Last edited by bosyber on Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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carisi2k wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:22 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:03 am
To put it simple, can any of the fans who think Vettel should have not got a penalty answer these 3 questions honestly....

Are you allowed to push another car off the track when they are alongside you? Yes or No?

Are you allowed to push another car off the track if you could prove that you never saw the other car in your mirrors? Even though that car was a large portion alongside you.
Yes or No?

If you come back on to the track after being on grass or gravel and are out of control and cause another car to brake and avoid you, is this a safe re-entry or an insafe re-entry?
Safe or Unsafe?

All 3 of these are worthy of penalties if found guilty of the crime. Sebastian has to have committed one of these offences, and deserved his penalty.
Answer 1. No. Lewis however was never beside Seb at any point in this incident for this to be the case and Lewis has as much responsibility to avoid an accident with an out of control car in front of him if not more resposibility.

Answer 2. No, however in this incident can you prove that seb pushed Lewis off the track and more importantly where is your proof that lewis was actually beside seb. With seb off the road the yellow flag rule should apply meaning no overtaking.

A3. No, however in this incident I would argue that with sebastian leaving the circuit that a yellow flag should have been active resulting in Lewis needing to have backed off and no overtaking being permitted. I would also argue that an incident was still happening up until the point sebastian regained control on the grippy part of the race track.
I think you are a clown making jokes for us to laugh.
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bonjon1979
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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If Lewis had kept his foot in it, which he would've been entitled to do, then Sebastian would've collected him and every one of those commentators saying it was just a racing incident would be saying that it was a clear penalty to Vettel. Even if it was accidental that he lost control, he still was out of control because of his own actions and if he had t-boned hamilton he'd have been even more severely punished for it. Because Hamilton managed to avoid him, Vettel's actions aren't changed. It's such an obvious slam dunk penalty as the rules are written even if the majority of us don't like it.

bonjon1979
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:26 pm
bonjon1979 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:50 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:39 am

I'm not entirely sure that he broke parc ferme rules. He did park up the car in parc ferme, just not on the podium spots he should have done. What he certainly broke, was the podium rules.

Again correct me if I am wrong if he actually did break parc ferme rules, but the difference between that and podium protocol cannot be overstated. Breaking parc ferme rules will net you an exclusion from the session; breaking podium protocol probably leads only to a fine. They might be able to punish him harder if he is deemed to have brought the sport into disrepute, but that's really stretching it and I don't think that is going to happen.

But he did technically followed parc ferme regulations. Parked the car at the specific place for none-podium finishers, and got himself weighted. I did first had the impression he skipped the weighting, but after reviewing the race I did noticed that conclusion was wrong and he got himself weighted. It's very peculiar to see he was that angry, that furious, yet still thinking logically and thinking about the parc ferme rules.

IMO, they shouldn't punish him further. It was good fun, brought some excitement into F1. Some drama can never harm your marketing.
I thought you have to proceed directly to parc ferme to be weighed and that you weren't allowed to go anywhere else until that was done because of the danger of being slipped weights or removing weight or whatever you might do. Maybe that rule has changed now driver weight is treated independently from car? Also, is leaving car at the end of the pitlane in parc ferme?

He also didn't abide by the post-race interview rules which are clearly laid out in the sporting regs. Nitpicking for sure but he did break those rules. Does that mean other drivers can just decide not to do the post-race interviews now if they don't fancy it?
Well the catch is that he proceeded directly to A parc ferme, but not the intended one.

The post-race interview is indeed a violation, of a wholly different kind. Being deemed to have violated par ferme rules will get you a exclusion from the appropiate session (which was the race). I think breaching the post-race rules can net you a whole sort of penalties, but it is mostly a fine handed out. Of course, repeatingly skipping post-race interviews might lead to harsher penalties, so it's not like it will go unpenalized forever.
I'm just not sure they can penalise anyone now for skipping the post-race interview. Because of all the fuss he was making, the FIA were too scared to penalise him further. So that's all a driver needs to do now, create a big fuss and everyone will be too afraid to challenge you.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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SKY have had a very interesting talk about the penalty and how it’s wrong. (The rule not the decision).
Davidson made a point that it’s because of a couple of drivers today. Rosberg went further and said it’s because of a Nutcase. They won’t say the name but I will, Magnessin! Let us be honest if we relax the rules he and that kind of driver would start pushing others off left right and centre and unfortunately Vettel has fallen foul of a rule that was put in place to clip the wings of others.
It’s exactly the same thing as in Football. Players cannot tackle today because in previous seasons the likes of Roy Keane, Patric Viera and Vinne Jones couldn’t control themselves.

Yet to counter that point I did find it interesting that to a man they all said they would do what Vettel did. It’s obvious that if Hamilton hadn’t backed out Vettel would have put him in the wall, probably costing both of them a finish. So by that logic everyone of them (Hill, De Resta, Davidson and Herbert) would’ve put Hamilton in the wall and likely taken themselves out. Maybe drivers as a whole need saving from themselves?

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Phil
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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You mention Magnussen while we have countless of incidents with a certain dutch driver (version 1.0) on the grid that, in pretty much every single incident he has ever been involved in, is somewhat questionable and debatable if entirely within the sporting code of racing? Uhm, yeah ok.

Disclaimer: Yes, I'm perfectly aware that Verstappen 2.0 has kept his nose pretty clean so far this year. No argument there. :P
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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dans79
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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Restomaniac wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:36 pm
Yet to counter that point I did find it interesting that to a man they all said they would do what Vettel did. It’s obvious that if Hamilton hadn’t backed out Vettel would have put him in the wall, probably costing both of them a finish. So by that logic everyone of them (Hill, De Resta, Davidson and Herbert) would’ve put Hamilton in the wall and likely taken themselves out. Maybe drivers as a whole need saving from themselves?
Hill is surprising, but the others not so much since they where mediocre drivers at best. Honestly They all sound like hillbilly NASCAR fans/drivers "if you can't beat them put them in the wall".
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Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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Phil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:48 pm
You mention Magnussen while we have countless of incidents with a certain dutch driver (version 1.0) on the grid that, in pretty much every single incident he has ever been involved in, is somewhat questionable and debatable if entirely within the sporting code of racing? Uhm, yeah ok.

Disclaimer: Yes, I'm perfectly aware that Verstappen 2.0 has kept his nose pretty clean so far this year. No argument there. :P
Your looking for an agenda when there isn’t one.

Verstappen has his moments too but Magnussen is by far the worst. In fact I would go as far as to say a dirty driver. That’s my point.